Orchestration questions.....

[Captain Caveman]

So I've managed to squeeze an orchestra into my /3Gb setup using GPO, Kontakt 3 VSL and Battery 3 Orchestral percussion and it's sounding good. I am however at the unknown unknown stage of orchestral mock ups.

I've set up stems audio tracks recording from groups so that I can mix the audio, and I've divided them into basic sections of Strings, Brass, Woodwind, Percussion and Misc for the harps n stuff. What stems do you guys like mixing with/using?

The second open-ended question I have is what answers do you have regarding orchestration to the questions I don't know to ask yet? :) Any tips n tricks you'd like to share, like cheaters methods of getting those nice fast piccolo and string runs really quickly what articulations need to go where or anything other Eureka moments that took you months/years to realise that you'd like to pass on.

Any advice is appreciated,

Cheers

Paul

[paulwr]

What VSL do you have? Are you talking the collection that came with Kontakt, or do you own some from VSL's collection?

As far as stems, it really depends on what you are doing, and how fast you need to work. If you anticipate having to chug out cues in quantity, then you'll need to really hone in on a workflow that allows you the best speed/quality ratio.

I tend towards composing into some of the mastering plugs, so that I am mixing/mastering to a great degree as I move along.

For final mixing, when it isn't achieved from the midi mixdown directly, it varies, as I said. Sometimes it is the orchestra sections, and then some various solo instruments. Other times it may be more involved, but for fast cues on deadlines, I usually mix from midi as I work, or turn in stems to another engineer for mixing.

When turning in stems, it becomes 24-36 stereo tracks, typically.


Regarding fast runs, everyone seems to have their bag of tricks. If I want and aggressive run for some over-the-top high energy animation stuff, I'll do this, and it seems very counter intuitive, but works for me.....

Say its violins, for example. I'll choose a nice legato articulation and get it sounding as close as I can to what I want. Then, copy it to another track and apply a staccato articulation, and blend it in to the point it is defining the notes better and to the degree I want. I know others who have come to this approach as well. I don't find myself wanting to apply special approaches to piccolo.

If you are getting into 'orchestra land' more deeply, you'll want to think about expanding your libraries. One of the best and at the same time most economical is the EastWest stuff. Great forum, too.

-Paul

[Captain Caveman]

Cheers for the reply Paul, much appreciated.

It's just the VSL that came with Kontakt 2 and 3 I'm using to add a bit of depth to the GPO instruments. I'm not doing this professionally so the stems are just to get some audio from the "morchestra" into another project to add more rythmic stuff and FX to seeing as my PC memory is groaning under the strain already. :)

That's a nice tip regarding mixing legato and staccato for fast string runs, I'll give that a bash today. Thanks.

I have one seemingly stupid question for someone who has used Cubase for so long. :icon_redface: Seeing as normally I do stuff at the volume range of 9 up till at least 11 and haven't really tried to record controller data for low volume swells and dips before, I hadn't noticed that Cubase seems to thin out the controller data when recording. Snap in off, quantize is at the smallest amount.

ie: I have a low volume choir and celesta part where I want the strings to come in at very low volume and swell up a bit before fading out, but when I record the mod wheel (used in GPO for volume) instead of recording what I heard when adjusting it, the mod wheel is staggered and jumps in values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 in instead of in 1s so it sounds stuttery. Redrawing the controller data smooths it out. This is with two seperate controller keyboards through 2 seperate MIDI interfaces (USB and Fireface), using the two mod wheels or a fader and it definately isn't stuttering when it plays while recording it.

Is there any way around this and do you prefer working with controller or automation lanes for the volume n stuff?

Thanks again and please everyone keep the tips coming! :)

Paul

[kdm]

Is there any way around this and do you prefer working with controller or automation lanes for the volume n stuff?

Paul

Hi Paul,

There is a midi preference for "thinning automation data" - simply turn it off or set to a higher resolution value.

Controller data is usually most preferred, at least I use it instead of automation lanes - mainly because controller data shows up in the key editor and I have key commands to changes contoller/key editor lane views (thanks to a tip from Thonex).

You may already know but fyi, cc11 is standard for volume expression (i.e. dynamics), where cc7 is standard volume for setting overall levels for an instrument.

[Captain Caveman]

Thanks for the pointers kdm, unfortunately the automation reduction slider doesn't do anything for the controller data and I'm bamboozled because the snap and quantise settings don't do anything either. Do you guys get nice smooth curves recording your controllers?

[kdm]

Then it is likely your controller. Post a pic of automation and I'll have a better idea. There are plenty of controllers that have lousy resolution - actually it's more common than not. With most, controller "curves" look more like a terraced mountainsides.

The best sliders, knobs and wheels are on Akai's MPK controllers - very smooth response with 1 step resolution, or as close to it as any controller I've used over the years.

What controller are you using?

[Captain Caveman]

Thanks very much for putting me on the right track kdm. :)

I'm using an Studiologic SL-990 and an M-Audio Axiom 49 and the mod wheel on the SL and the faders and mod wheel on the Axiom are indeed pretty rough. But I have found a solution!

Thanks to a MIDI plugin called CC_Glider by Soma (http://www.asseca.com/soma/cc_glider.html) I now have smooth CC data. In case anyone else is having problems with crappy controllers I'll post what I had to do to get it to work......

Since Cubendo doesn't allow normal VST plugins (even ones designed for MIDI only) to be used as MIDI Inserts they need to be put in the Instrument Rack. Unfortunately, the CC_Glider plugin doesn't pass on Note On/Off messages either....

I put the CC_Glider plugin and a MIDI Channeliser plugin in the Instrument Rack. (The MIDI Channeliser plugin is just to receive and pass on MIDI (any one that does this would do)).

I created 3 tracks, one for each controller keyboard and one to receive the MIDI from CC_Glider as the input and pass it onto MIDI Channeliser as the output.

Track 1. Input Axiom. Output - Not Connected. 2 MIDI sends, one to MIDI Channeliser with a Transformer MIDI plugin to filter the CC data and one to CC_Glider (I suppose CC_Glider could have been the output, but hey.)

Track 2. Input SL-990. Same as above.

Track 3. Input CC_Glider. Output MIDI Channeliser.

Instead of physical MIDI inputs, all the inputs for the MIDI tracks apart from those 3 are set to receive from MIDI Channeliser.

All 3 tracks have monitoring permanently on and are hidden in the top section of the split project window for tidyness. :)

I'll post before and after pictures of the CC data later. Thanks again for the heads-up cause I was automatically blaming Cubase and must have been hearing things when the live playing was smoother than the recorded.

[Captain Caveman]

Well here's the difference, both of these were recorded with the same pass with the one fader on the Axiom. The reason they aren't quite lining up is the CC_Glider plugin buffer which can be reduced but I haven't tweaked it yet. Anyway, apologies for the big picture, I did crop it to just the editors. :)

edit: here's a link to the pic, that big one was doing my head in....

http://i.mavrev.com/i/091451278157.jpg

[paulwr]

definitely get your controller kinks ironed out. You want them all recording smoothly.

I do about half or more of my controller data by quickly drawing it. I'll even record it live, but then draw it in more accurately. Not everyone works that way, but I find I do get better results. My performance of the piano keys is more accurate than my controller performance. I use a few sliders and wheels. Some argue it isn't as organic, but if my controller timing is off, well, it is off. A violinist will be pretty accurate controlling the violin, and I like to be up with that accuracy.

-Paul

[Captain Caveman]

Yup, I've tweaked the settings for smoothness without the delay so all is good and I'm getting increments of 1 no matter what I do and a minimal delay.

What do you and others think of loading individual articulations vs key switched section patches in your templates? I know from your answer before that having a staccato string patch is good in addition to a KS violin etc for the fast runs, but are there any other examples of must/should/thinkabout-haves and what are the arguments for and against?

[paulwr]

there's a point that you just have to dig in and with your own library of sounds, find out what works for you.

Composer setups can be pretty different from one another, and for many, many reasons. Discover what works for you, and try not to go broke in the meanwhile!

-Paul

[Captain Caveman]

Yes, I suppose you're right re the getting a personal workflow going. I've think I've got a happy medium with KS sections and individual solo players at the mo so I'll see how that works out.

Thanks again for your assistance. :)