Vienna Ensemble PRO

[Daryl]

Vienna Ensemble PRO
Introducing a major upgrade to our MIDI and audio LAN solution Vienna Ensemble 3. This development is so big, we’ve changed its name to Vienna Ensemble PRO.

The industry took notice when we first created a MIDI and audio cross-platform network solution that can incorporate both Macs and PCs into an integrated “super-system”, using a simple Ethernet cable. Now, Vienna Ensemble PRO will offer 3rd party plug-in hosting! Instantiate your favorite VST/AU sample players and virtual instruments from other companies alongside Vienna Instruments, and add any VST/AU effect plug-ins you choose to your mix – 32-bit or 64-bit – all in one interface. With total integration you’ll no longer need audio and MIDI hardware on your slave computers. Learn more about Vienna Ensemble's revolutionary networking features here.

Another important feature is the new Preserve function. Now you can keep your templates and instruments loaded while switching from one project to another. Just disconnect your DAW host from Vienna Ensemble PRO, bring up a new song in your sequencer, and re-connect – all the samples and instruments remain loaded, which will speed up your work-flow significantly. Add to that the new mixer automation of Vienna Ensemble PRO, and you're presented with the uber-host for sample-based music production on one or more computers!

New Features

3rd party plug-in hosting (AU and VST formats)
Preserve feature – Disconnect your Vienna Ensemble PRO slave machine from your master machine while keeping your instruments loaded, and re-connect to a new project.
Mixer Automation
Improved User Interface design
Along with the renaming of Vienna Ensemble PRO, Vienna Ensemble 2, the free version without the network function will now be known simply as Vienna Ensemble.

Vienna Ensemble PRO will soon be available in the download section of our web shop. Registered users of Vienna Ensemble 3 will be able to upgrade FREE of charge.

Who's going to ask EW whether they have tested PLAY with this VST host?!?!?!?!

It also means that people who want to run Cubendo 32bit in XP/Vist64 can now use all the memory they have, without the 4GB ceiling.

D

[kdm]

Very cool. I'll have to check it out. Cubase 4.5/64 bit is running fine hosting Play on Vista 64 at the moment though. Still, it could be a good option for the other farm PCs when I migrate them to Vista 64 if it runs efficiently.

[Animus]

Can you just buy the vst hosting software without buying all the samples?

This would be really cool as a replacement for FXT.

[Daryl]

Can you just buy the vst hosting software without buying all the samples?

This would be really cool as a replacement for FXT.
You can currently buy VE3 without any samples, although it makes no sense ATM. I assume that this won't change. I suggest you head for the VSL forum and ask. :wink:

D

[Animus]

Yeah I just checked it out. Looks like it costs about $150 separately. This will be awesome. For those of you that already use the network function how is the latency compared to fxteleport?

[Daryl]

Yeah I just checked it out. Looks like it costs about $150 separately. This will be awesome. For those of you that already use the network function how is the latency compared to fxteleport?

I tested it out, and the latency was a bit better than FXT, but still too high for me. However, this was the first release version, so it may have improved since then.

One thing to note. You only get three licences for your money (I think), and if you want another one you would have to buy another three.

D

[TAFKAT]

Awesome...!

Finally , not only a replacement for V-Stack.., FXT, etc, but also something that will help break that 4GB limit in x64 for 32 bit apps..

This is going to be huge... :clap:

[Animus]

I tested it out, and the latency was a bit better than FXT, but still too high for me. However, this was the first release version, so it may have improved since then.

One thing to note. You only get three licences for your money (I think), and if you want another one you would have to buy another three.

D

That's fine. More than I need. FXT charged you by the computer and was more expensive overall.

[Daryl]

That's fine. More than I need. FXT charged you by the computer and was more expensive overall.

Don't forget to factor in the cost of the dongles.

D

[Animus]

Don't forget to factor in the cost of the dongles.

D

Already got a spare from my Cubase license. :icon_biggrin:

[kdm]

You only get three licences for your money (I think), and if you want another one you would have to buy another three.

D

Three licenses for $150? That's still a good deal, even with 3 keys. Less than 3 copies of Cubase.

[Animus]

This has been released. I might try the demo and see how it goes.

[Daryl]

This has been released. I might try the demo and see how it goes.

VE PRO still has a month or so to go before release, AFAIK.

D

[Animus]

VE PRO still has a month or so to go before release, AFAIK.

D



hmmm They were talking about some release over at Gearlslutz. Maybe they were talking about the regular non-pro version?

[Daryl]

hmmm They were talking about some release over at Gearlslutz. Maybe they were talking about the regular non-pro version?
Don't believe anything you read over there. They don't even know what a VSTi is. :icon_eek3:

D

[Livewire]

I got an email from VSL saying that it's going to be released and ready for download beginning of September, so it must be very close now....

[BJF]

So it looks like this is out now, and ready for public consumption...!

B

[Daryl]

Yep, some great features:

VST3
Global optimise
Preserve
Load all slaves at the same time............!
Hosting most 3rd party VSTi and effects (the notable exception is PLAY, which requires cooperation from EW to fix).

The only downer for me is that there is a bug that causes a crash with Nuendo if I close it and the open it again. I have reported it, and ta-daaaaaaaaa, it turns out that it is caused by the eLicencer. So Steinberg and their Syncrosoft dongle have cocked up. Nate, where are you?

D

[RiffWraith]

What the heck do you need Nate for???? :eusa_whistle:

I am going to get this later today, or early tomorrow. I have one Syncro key, and that is in my Master DAW. Of course, it has to stay there. I assume I need a 2nd key for the slave?

And Daryl - did you put the VE Pro license on the key that has the N license? If so, do you think that the same problem would occur if you had a 2nd key - one for VE Pro, and one for N?

cheers.

[Daryl]

And Daryl - did you put the VE Pro license on the key that has the N license? If so, do you think that the same problem would occur if you had a 2nd key - one for VE Pro, and one for N?

cheers.
Makes no difference either way. However, I believe that it's not a problem with Cubase 5.1, so you should be OK.

D

[Daryl]

What the heck do you need Nate for???? :eusa_whistle:

I am going to get this later today, or early tomorrow. I have one Syncro key, and that is in my Master DAW. Of course, it has to stay there. I assume I need a 2nd key for the slave?

cheers.Sorry, I forgot to answer this. You need a Syncrosoft dongle for any machine that you want to open VE Pro on. If you don't want to use it in your DAW, you don't need a key on that machine.

D

[paulwr]

so the only machine I have syncroft on, is the one I don't need it on. Was hoping they had this all configured from the main DAW machine, rats. So I have to by syncroft keys just to try it.

Hope someone that has the extra keys has some input on this soon. I have concerns on the latency, among other things. Great if it works off the bat. I want to setup another slave soon, and if I lower my audio/midi porting costs by a factor of ten, compared to rme and mol, I'll be very happy.

-Paul

[Daryl]

so the only machine I have syncroft on, is the one I don't need it on. Was hoping they had this all configured from the main DAW machine, rats. So I have to by syncroft keys just to try it.

Hope someone that has the extra keys has some input on this soon. I have concerns on the latency, among other things. Great if it works off the bat. I want to setup another slave soon, and if I lower my audio/midi porting costs by a factor of ten, compared to rme and mol, I'll be very happy.

-Paul
However, you should really have a spare dongle anyway, for safety, so the extra £12 or so shouldn't break the bank. :wink:

D

[RiffWraith]

Well, this is interesting.

Martin Saleteg (from VSL) wrote:

""I am doing what I can to cooperate with Eastwest in resolving this technical issue as soon as possible... "

Doug Rogers wrote:

"Let's set the record straight, we have never heard from anyone at VSL about this product and nor is there a PLAY update in development for it. "

:pop_corn:

[paulwr]

I'll have to go with believing Doug on this one. I don't care too much, though. My Play Platinum SO is just sitting on the shelf. Still using Kontakt and probably will until I see if Play Pro is an improvement.

-Paul

[Daryl]

I'll have to go with believing Doug on this one. I don't care too much, though. My Play Platinum SO is just sitting on the shelf. Still using Kontakt and probably will until I see if Play Pro is an improvement.

-Paul
And I suppose that because Doug was telling the truth, that's why he edited his post from what he originally posted (and Riff quoted)? :icon_rolleyes:

D

[paulwr]

And I suppose that because Doug was telling the truth, that's why he edited his post from what he originally posted (and Riff quoted)? :icon_rolleyes:

D

really...... what was the change? I don't understand..... are you saying you think Play will be compatible with Vienna Ensemble PRO? I'm kind of doubting it. Play isn't even compatible with my Cubase 3.1 as a vsti. Gui stopped working one or two Play versions ago. I can only run it as stand-alone. I'm running Cubase in XP x64. It might be fine in XP 32 bit, though.

At any rate, if Vienna Ensemble works well with Kontakt, I'll be pretty happy about it. And if Play Pro becomes as powerful and dependable as Kontakt, I'll be pretty happy about that, too.

-Paul

-Paul

[Daryl]

really...... what was the change? I don't understand..... are you saying you think Play will be compatible with Vienna Ensemble PRO? I'm kind of doubting it. Play isn't even compatible with my Cubase 3.1 as a vsti. Gui stopped working one or two Play versions ago. I can only run it as stand-alone. I'm running Cubase in XP x64. It might be fine in XP 32 bit, though.

At any rate, if Vienna Ensemble works well with Kontakt, I'll be pretty happy about it. And if Play Pro becomes as powerful and dependable as Kontakt, I'll be pretty happy about that, too.

-Paul

-Paul
Well have a look for yourself:



Let's set the record straight, we have never heard from anyone at VSL about this product and nor is there a PLAY update in development for it.


Let's set the record straight, I have never heard from anyone at VSL about this product.

D

[RiffWraith]

Yep - I just checked, and Doug did edit his post. Daryl's got it 100%. ^

That, and Martin responding this way to an iquiry on VI.net about this very issue:

"As I hope you can understand, I can or will not comment on neither the external nor the internal information flow of other companies in a public forum."

Leads me to believe that Doug is not exactly being truthful about this.

[Daryl]

Leads me to believe that Doug is not exactly being truthful about this.

Actually I suspect it's just that the internal communication within EW is not what it should be, and Doug just jumped in with his usual lack of style. Shame he hasn't got the balls to admit that he was wrong though. :smash:

D

Update, he's half come clean now.

[paulwr]

Actually I suspect it's just that the internal communication within EW is not what it should be, and Doug just jumped in with his usual lack of style. Shame he hasn't got the balls to admit that he was wrong though. :smash:

D

Update, he's half come clean now.

He just posted this, if that's what you mean:

"Update, one of our QA team received a copy of the software, we're looking into it.

Meanwhile it's not an officially supported host until any compatibility issues are resolved.

Cheers,

- DR"

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

I wonder if he did this because although I did not quote him in the SO thread, I did in the VI thread. Maybe he saw that, and decided to, as you say, half come clean. I don't know. I hate accusing people of something when I have no evidence to back it up, but I don't trust Doug further than I can chuck him.

[RiffWraith]

Ok, where the heck do you get the actual sw? I got the email with the act. code, d/l the license, started the usgae period, but how do I get the sw?

D'OH - just found it. I didn't see the link in the email. :smash:

[TAFKAT]

Well have a look for yourself:

Priceless,

Heres my Diagonalese interpretation..


Lets set the record straight, I couldn't find my own arse in a well lit room, I have been caught with my pants down , and am now back pedalling at a million miles an hour.. !

:D

[Animus]

hilarious Vin.


Yeah that guy always kind of annoyed me. Always comes off as a smug.. And they can't even get their own software to work so I don't hold much hope in them getting it to work wih some other thing too. lol

[RiffWraith]

And they can't even get their own software to work


Actually, their sw - PLAY specifically - works quite well. Lord knows it didn't start that way, and there are definitely some things that need attention before it can be called a top-notch peice of sw, but it works pretty darn well.

[Animus]

That's not what I keep hearing.

[paulwr]

For large orchestral templates....... stick with Kontakt.
The others Play soundware may be cpu intensive, mostly because of the convolution engine, but are very worthwhile. Pretty solid these days.... don't rely on outdated info. Still, I wish all of it had been done for the Kontakt engine. I don't like each and every Play title being a big glossy different GUI. Remember, though, that the current player is just that...... a little 'player'. The Play Pro, whenever it appears, will be more directly comparable to Kontakt. No telling how solid that will be. They took on a lot by committing to Play from Kontakt, no doubt. But the libraries are worthy.

I don't know of any big composer in Hollywood that runs a large computer farm that is using play for his orchestral template. Maybe once the Play Pro sampler comes out and gets solid.

-Paul

[Daryl]

Priceless,

Heres my Diagonalese interpretation..


Lets set the record straight, I couldn't find my own arse in a well lit room, I have been caught with my pants down , and am now back pedalling at a million miles an hour.. !

:D
Yeah, that's about it I guess.

I half feel sorry for the guy thought. He is insanely jealous of VSL and their software developers. He took (quite rightly) a huge amount of flack for the appalling PLAY release, whereas the VSL Vienna Instruments one was fairly painless for most users. PLAY Pro, which allegedly was going to be the top sample player within 3 years (yeah right) doesn't even exist yet. The networking capability, which is "being tested" at the moment is actually hardly anything more than Remote Desktop, and possibly MOL. I'm actually quite impressed that VSL didn't wade into him when he made his ridiculous statements, that he had to pull later.

I'm still waiting for the apology from our esteemed forum colleague who chose to believe Doug and basically call Martin (from VSL) a liar. Come on Paul, do the decent thing. martin was obviously telling the truth and Doug was just ignorant and incompetent....! :smash:

D

[Daryl]

hilarious Vin.


Yeah that guy always kind of annoyed me. Always comes off as a smug.. And they can't even get their own software to work so I don't hold much hope in them getting it to work wih some other thing too. lol
I only have one PLAY product and it is the only product I have that can crash Nuendo. I use it as little as possible.

Having said that, it is much better now than it was when it was released. not as good as the NI version though (which doesn't work in XP64, unfortunately). I also think that the legato is pretty dreadful; nothing like the real thing, and not even as good as SIPS.

D

[paulwr]

Yeah, that's about it I guess.

I half feel sorry for the guy thought. He is insanely jealous of VSL and their software developers. He took (quite rightly) a huge amount of flack for the appalling PLAY release, whereas the VSL Vienna Instruments one was fairly painless for most users. PLAY Pro, which allegedly was going to be the top sample player within 3 years (yeah right) doesn't even exist yet. The networking capability, which is "being tested" at the moment is actually hardly anything more than Remote Desktop, and possibly MOL. I'm actually quite impressed that VSL didn't wade into him when he made his ridiculous statements, that he had to pull later.

I'm still waiting for the apology from our esteemed forum colleague who chose to believe Doug and basically call Martin (from VSL) a liar. Come on Paul, do the decent thing. martin was obviously telling the truth and Doug was just ignorant and incompetent....! :smash:

D
Matin's not a liar. I didn't intend to come off that way, sorry. Doug isn't apparently up on his internal communications, but you'd think he would have been aware of any incoming communication from VSL, to be sure. I just didn't think Doug was lying, and he probably wasn't. But I've never appreciated his over-hype, not to mention premature release, of Play. I don't know why, with all their $, that they are having such a tough time getting some of these things done right.

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

I don't know why, with all their $, that they are having such a tough time getting some of these things done right.

-Paul

I think Doug is doing the programming himself. :icon_eek3:

[Animus]

I don't know why, with all their $, that they are having such a tough time getting some of these things done right.

-Paul

Easy, they spent all their time and money on the atrocious Rococo decor for EastWest Studios. :icon_eek3:

[paulwr]

god, and then posted the pix with pride..............
I didn't get that at all.

-Paul

[Daryl]

Matin's not a liar. I didn't intend to come off that way, sorry.
-Paul

That's alright. i was just yankin' yer chain. i just found it strange that you would automatically believe a man who has been wrong time and time again, over the guy who is actually coding the software.

Which reminds me; why have the EW software developers never come onto forums to answer questions? Are they embarrassed to put their name to that disaster area that is PLAY? :icon_lol:

D

[Animus]

That's alright. i was just yankin' yer chain. i just found it strange that you would automatically believe a man who has been wrong time and time again, over the guy who is actually coding the software.

Which reminds me; why have the EW software developers never come onto forums to answer questions? Are they embarrassed to put their name to that disaster area that is PLAY? :icon_lol:

D

They come out for damage control--with weapons drawn. There was a hilarious thread over at VI COntrol where some users of Play were expressing their dissatisfaction and the EW came over and started stirring the pot and flaming people.

[RiffWraith]

Yeah - like Doug is going to allow his programmers public access. Steinberg doesn't allow their programmers on public forums - you think Doug is going to??? :icon_no:

[RiffWraith]

Martin came out with this yesterday:


we are aware of the incompatibilities with PLAY and are working together with EastWest to solve the issues.

:eusa_whistle:

[paulwr]

did you read in the thread on this at SoundsOnLine forum the guy, I think Tao Johnson?

..said the only problem he had running Play was if he clicked the midi channel box first, it crashed, and that if he clicked on anything else first, and THEN made the midi channel choices, everything was fine after that. Who knows if that would be the case on all systems, but easy to check out.

-Paul

[Animus]

So I tried this out. Pretty cool but not totally what I was hoping for, nor a perfect replacement for FXT.

It's not as flexible as FXT in some ways since you can only access the vstis, midi and audio, indirectly on the slave whereas each vsti in FXT is wrapped separately and you can assign it directly. I can see how it can get confusing and unwieldy trying go back and forth to make sure you get the right midi node and channel. Also on the slave it is kind of a pita it doesn't make all the vsti input channels automatically; you have to set them up manually unless I am missing something. Also I see that you can set the amount of vsti outputs on the slaves preferences but there must be a limitation in Cubase/Nuendo as it will only let me have 32 channels totally. it would have been cool to load up all you vstis in one instancee of VE Pro for tidiness. Or does each instance have a separate memory space where it can access another 2 gigs?

Overall pretty cool though. Latency was great. I am thinking about building a new i7 machine so I can get my latency down. VE Pro seems more suited for composers who have big templates which is cool but hopefully they will develop it more to make it more FXT like. One thing that is cool is that you can put effects on the slave's outputs. I could use that to load up some Nebulas directly without have to have repeated roundtrips over the network.

So if I buy this I get 3 licenses? But have to have three dongles? Or do you have to buy a separate license for each slave machine? That would make it less attractive.

[RiffWraith]

"whereas each vsti in FXT is wrapped separately "

Same in VE PRo....

"So if I buy this I get there licenses? "

No, three. :smash:

"But have to have three dongles?"

Yep - one for each machine.

Cheers.

[Animus]

"whereas each vsti in FXT is wrapped separately "

Same in VE PRo....

"So if I buy this I get there licenses? "

No, three. :smash:

"But have to have three dongles?"

Yep - one for each machine.

Cheers.

hehe yeah I had already corrected that typo thankyou. ;-)


What I meant about wrapping the vsti directly is that in FXT you see that name of the vsti right in Nuendo/Cubase as opposed to VE where you have to assign it to the VE Pro vsti which has the intended vsti wrapped inside in the server side. Significant difference imo. Not saying it's bad per se but it would be something I would have to get used to.

[paulwr]

Overall pretty cool though. Latency was great. I am thinking about building a new i7 machine so I can get my latency down.


If latency is great, why do you need to get it down further? I'm just trying to follow. I've asked elsewhere on SOS forum, but..... have you tried playing piano from the slave? Feel nice and tight, or is it a little laggy? Curious what you might see if you line up midi with recorded inbound audio from slave with VE Pro. Might get a decent idea of actual latency in samples.

Thanks,
-Paul

[Daryl]

OK, a few things:

1) You can have up to 32 MIDI ports per instance, each with 16 MIDI channels.
2) You can have up to 64 stereo channels per instance
3) You only have to start the server on the slave; the instances will automatically be loaded by the host, unless you have Preserved them
4) I don't understand the name thing; in FXT if I load a VST host like Chainer, then that's what I see in Nuendo. No different with VE Pro.

D

[Animus]

If latency is great, why do you need to get it down further? I'm just trying to follow. I've asked elsewhere on SOS forum, but..... have you tried playing piano from the slave? Feel nice and tight, or is it a little laggy? Curious what you might see if you line up midi with recorded inbound audio from slave with VE Pro. Might get a decent idea of actual latency in samples.

Thanks,
-Paul

I mean I can have low latency on the host machine but at the cost of higher cpu with this q6600. I meant I want to get a i7 to have more cpu headroom at lower latency.

[Animus]

OK, a few things:

1) You can have up to 32 MIDI ports per instance, each with 16 MIDI channels.
2) You can have up to 64 stereo channels per instance
3) You only have to start the server on the slave; the instances will automatically be loaded by the host, unless you have Preserved them
4) I don't understand the name thing; in FXT if I load a VST host like Chainer, then that's what I see in Nuendo. No different with VE Pro.

D


The name thing.... in VE Pro I load up a VE vsti in the rack and make a midi channel. On the slave I load up a Kontakt for example and setup the necesarry midi and audio routing. I have to assign the midi channel on the host to the VE Pro vsti in the vst rack and then set the midi channel that corresponds to the instrument over on the slave VE Pro Kontakt instance.

In FXT I just load up the wrapped Kontakt and it shows up as Kontakt 2 (Lan) on the midi channel output. With VE Pro there's another layer in between and you are kind of blind if you have several vstis loaded on the slave so you have to make sure you make the right conenctions. Unless I am missing something.

No big deal though, just a little extra hassle. I am thinking I will go ahead and get it. FXT is pretty much dead in development anyway.

[Animus]

OK, a few things:

2) You can have up to 64 stereo channels per instance


D

Am I overlooking something here too? You can setup 64 channels on the slave VE Pro but how are you routing all those channels back to Cubendo? I can only activate 32 channels total on the host side.

[Animus]

The price says 145 euros so how much is it in USD? Do we pay the exchange rate or do they do the Steinberg thing and it's the same amount in usd if you know what I mean?

[RiffWraith]

The price says 145 euros so how much is it in USD? Do we pay the exchange rate...


Yep - the exchange rate. Currently, that's $212 USD: http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Actually works out to be a bit cheaper than FX-T with the exchange rate what it is. 3 FX-T licenses would run $257 USD

Yeah - I don't understand the naming thing either....

"With VE Pro there's another layer in between and you are kind of blind if you have several vstis loaded on the slave so you have to make sure you make the right conenctions. "

Huh??? Not getting that. With FXT, it - as you say - shows up as Kontakt 2 (Lan) on the midi channel output. And in the VST rack, as well. Same here with VEP; it shows up in both places as "VE Pro".

You are loading 1 instance of Kontakt for one each instance of VE Pro, right?

Cheers.

[Animus]

Yep - the exchange rate. Currently, that's $212 USD: http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Actually works out to be a bit cheaper than FX-T with the exchange rate what it is. 3 FX-T licenses would run $257 USD

Yeah - I don't understand the naming thing either....

"With VE Pro there's another layer in between and you are kind of blind if you have several vstis loaded on the slave so you have to make sure you make the right conenctions. "

Huh??? Not getting that. With FXT, it - as you say - shows up as Kontakt 2 (Lan) on the midi channel output. And in the VST rack, as well. Same here with VEP; it shows up in both places as "VE Pro".

You are loading 1 instance of Kontakt for one each instance of VE Pro, right?

Cheers.

I was speaking more if you had several vstis loaded up under the same VE Pro instance. If you just have one kOntakt loaded I guess it's somewhat the same. Now what if you had 1 VE Pro Kontakt loaded, then one VE Pro Abysnth and then maybe a VE Pro Play as well. On the host side all 3 of these show up exactly the same so you would always have to double check which VE instance that Kontakt string sample was on when you assigned midi channels to it. I'd have to switch to the slave machine to see "where" it's at. Understand?

[RiffWraith]

Yes, I understand, but you wouldn't do it the way you desvribe for exactly that reason. You would use 1 VSTi per instance - the same way you would use FX-T. You could do more than one VSTi per instance - I think...I have not actually tried it that way, but if you can get that to work, then I'll take your word for it. Point is, why would you do that? What would be the advantages to loading more than one VSTi per instance?

[Animus]

Yes, I understand, but you wouldn't do it the way you desvribe for exactly that reason. You would use 1 VSTi per instance - the same way you would use FX-T. You could do more than one VSTi per instance - I think...I have not actually tried it that way, but if you can get that to work, then I'll take your word for it. Point is, why would you do that? What would be the advantages to loading more than one VSTi per instance?


I was thinking if you could squeeze in all the vsti you needed rather than open other instances of ve pro then it wouldn't take up as much resources etc. But maybe that's not that big of a deal.

Don't get me wrong. I think its really cool overal. Just giving my impressions. It seems rock solid stable too. Other companies could learn from VSL about quality releases.

[paulwr]

I mean I can have low latency on the host machine but at the cost of higher cpu with this q6600. I meant I want to get a i7 to have more cpu headroom at lower latency.

OK, I see.

[paulwr]

Yes, I understand, but you wouldn't do it the way you desvribe for exactly that reason. You would use 1 VSTi per instance - the same way you would use FX-T. You could do more than one VSTi per instance - I think...I have not actually tried it that way, but if you can get that to work, then I'll take your word for it. Point is, why would you do that? What would be the advantages to loading more than one VSTi per instance?

Well, to me, or at least for me, I see VE Pro as being a template building tool and I'd load up quite a bit in one instance. In one instance of Kontakt on a slave I literally have about 330+ instruments loaded, due to using banks. I like having everything loaded. This will be pretty funny if it works so well I drop my rme 9652 cards. Sounds like I may very well be able to receive all the audio channels I want and make recording a whole bunch of stems for a complex piece a reality. I can't quite to that now and so run MEAP when I'm done composing for the day and let it run unattended. I'd rather be able to do midi to audio rendering at any time in a simple realtime pass.

-Paul

[Daryl]

The name thing.... in VE Pro I load up a VE vsti in the rack and make a midi channel. On the slave I load up a Kontakt for example and setup the necesarry midi and audio routing. I have to assign the midi channel on the host to the VE Pro vsti in the vst rack and then set the midi channel that corresponds to the instrument over on the slave VE Pro Kontakt instance.

In FXT I just load up the wrapped Kontakt and it shows up as Kontakt 2 (Lan) on the midi channel output. With VE Pro there's another layer in between and you are kind of blind if you have several vstis loaded on the slave so you have to make sure you make the right conenctions. Unless I am missing something.

No big deal though, just a little extra hassle. I am thinking I will go ahead and get it. FXT is pretty much dead in development anyway.
This is inevitable. Stop thinking of VE Pro as a sample player. It is a VSTi host. If you could load Omnisphere (for example) in Kontakt, you would have the same problem with FXT. It would "wrap" Kontakt, and not Omnisphere.

D

[Daryl]

Am I overlooking something here too? You can setup 64 channels on the slave VE Pro but how are you routing all those channels back to Cubendo? I can only activate 32 channels total on the host side.

Firstly you need to use the VST3 plug ///
Secondly you need to activate the number of Ports and Outputs in the server. 64 Outputs is actually 32 stereo.


D

[Daryl]

Yes, I understand, but you wouldn't do it the way you desvribe for exactly that reason. You would use 1 VSTi per instance - the same way you would use FX-T. You could do more than one VSTi per instance - I think...I have not actually tried it that way, but if you can get that to work, then I'll take your word for it. Point is, why would you do that? What would be the advantages to loading more than one VSTi per instance?

Do remember that there is a limit of 8 VE Pro that you can connect.

D

[Daryl]

Well, to me, or at least for me, I see VE Pro as being a template building tool and I'd load up quite a bit in one instance. In one instance of Kontakt on a slave I literally have about 330+ instruments loaded, due to using banks. I like having everything loaded. This will be pretty funny if it works so well I drop my rme 9652 cards. Sounds like I may very well be able to receive all the audio channels I want and make recording a whole bunch of stems for a complex piece a reality. I can't quite to that now and so run MEAP when I'm done composing for the day and let it run unattended. I'd rather be able to do midi to audio rendering at any time in a simple realtime pass.

-Paul

Paul, the most important things for you to get the best low latency performance are:

Your network has to be configured properly
You must use at least cat 5e cables
If you have more than one slave, you need a good quality Gigabit switch (not hub).

Also, the more audio channels that you send the more strain it will put on the system.

However, even if you get a couple of pops whist programming, there is nothing to stop you raising your soundcard buffer whilst rendering to your DAW. Cubendo will automatically make sure that everything is still in sync.

D

[RiffWraith]

Do remember that there is a limit of 8 VE Pro that you can connect.

D


Ah - I did not know that. Yes - I see that now. Why is that?

So, how do you differentiate between mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance?

[Daryl]

Ah - I did not know that. Yes - I see that now. Why is that?
'Cos it's programmed that way. :icon_lol:



So, how do you differentiate between mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance?
You can't, unless you know which is which. This is exactly the same as any other VST Host.

DG

[Animus]

So, how do you differentiate between mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance?

:eusa_think:

That's what I have been saying. It's clear in FXT. But as Daryl says I just have to look at this a different way.

:D

[Animus]

Firstly you need to use the VST3 plug ///
Secondly you need to activate the number of Ports and Outputs in the server. 64 Outputs is actually 32 stereo.


D

So you can get 32 stereo channels out of VE Pro on the host side? I tried both plugs and could only ever get 16 stereo channels.

[Daryl]

So you can get 32 stereo channels out of VE Pro on the host side? I tried both plugs and could only ever get 16 stereo channels.

You can have 64 stereo Outputs and 512 MIDI channels per instance . Are you sure you are using the VST3 plug, and have you set your Preferences for this amount in the server window?

D

[Vinark]

Hey guys what are the limitations of the demo, how many times or how long can you try it out? Couldn't find it anywhere.

[Daryl]

Hey guys what are the limitations of the demo, how many times or how long can you try it out? Couldn't find it anywhere.

The previous ones were 30 days.

D

[RiffWraith]

:eusa_think:

That's what I have been saying. It's clear in FXT. But as Daryl says I just have to look at this a different way.

:D


Oh - I am not even talking about how one looks at it, I am talking about access. If you load mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance, how do you access each Kontakt instance independantly? You can't, or so it would seem. Therefore, you are limited to 128 instruments - independantly assignable instruments - per slave...no?

[paulwr]

Hey guys what are the limitations of the demo, how many times or how long can you try it out? Couldn't find it anywhere.

I've been told the sound drops out periodically. I'm still waiting for my key to get delivered, hopefully by Wed.

-Paul

[paulwr]

Oh - I am not even talking about how one looks at it, I am talking about access. If you load mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance, how do you access each Kontakt instance independantly? You can't, or so it would seem. Therefore, you are limited to 128 instruments - independantly assignable instruments - per slave...no?

I don't really get the problem. Aren't you setting it up as a template? Won't the midi ports/channels get saved so they reopen properly? They better.

Now, even if you are practically limited to use only one vsti Kontakt per instance...... you can get WAY MORE than 16 instruments per each instance by using banks/keyswitches which is already what I do now. This worst case scenario gives me DOUBLE the Kontakt slot count I have now, and many many more audio channels. And if what I've heard is correct, you can apply vst plugs at the outputs of VE Pro? MAN, the question is latency -which is sounding like not an issue so far, and resourses handling the audio busses at the slave, and at the DAW. So far so good. Look forward to testing this next week. In fact, I'm getting tempted to stick my steinberg key in a slave, and try this with Reaper for the hell of it. But navigating Reaper is next to impossible for me now. Not an intuitive program at all, though some of the features are stellar.

-Paul

[Daryl]

Oh - I am not even talking about how one looks at it, I am talking about access. If you load mulitple Kontakt instances that are wrapped inside one VE Pro instance, how do you access each Kontakt instance independantly? You can't, or so it would seem. Therefore, you are limited to 128 instruments - independantly assignable instruments - per slave...no?

You access it the same as you would with any VST host. You click the Kontakt instance in VE Pro and then work the same way as normal. Have you tried any of this? It is so obvious that all i can assume is that you haven't even tried the software yet. :wink:

It's setting the Outputs that's more tricky, I think. MIDI in is easy. You set each Kontakt instance to have it's own MIDI port and set the MIDI channel to Omni, and then you split it up in Kontakt.

D

[Daryl]

I've been told the sound drops out periodically. I'm still waiting for my key to get delivered, hopefully by Wed.

-Paul

That's most likely to be because of a bad network. remember that just because it is OK for MOL doesn't mean that it's set up properly.

D

[paulwr]

That's most likely to be because of a bad network. remember that just because it is OK for MOL doesn't mean that it's set up properly.

D

No, I don't think you read the question I was answering.....

I've been told the way VE Pro demo is "crippled" is that it periodically drops the audio in/out. At least that is what Allan at SOS forum on similar thread to this said. I don't know for sure. Do you know for sure how the demo behaves.......... 30 days, limited performance in audio or midi, etc......?

Thanks,
-Paul

[Daryl]

No, I don't think you read the question I was answering.....

I've been told the way VE Pro demo is "crippled" is that it periodically drops the audio in/out. At least that is what Allan at SOS forum on similar thread to this said. I don't know for sure. Do you know for sure how the demo behaves.......... 30 days, limited performance in audio or midi, etc......?

Thanks,
-Paul

The demos for VE3 have always been 30 days or 180 starts. I would suggest asking support directly to get the correct answer. Did Allan specifically say that the demo was designed this way?

D

[paulwr]

The demos for VE3 have always been 30 days or 180 starts. I would suggest asking support directly to get the correct answer. Did Allan specifically say that the demo was designed this way?

D

Yes, he did. But sharp as he is, still worth checking. If I have time tonight I'll be trying this out on Reaper so I can plug the cubase key into a slave. The software should say when you load it up, what the demo terms are.

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

It is so obvious that all i can assume is that you haven't even tried the software yet. :wink:


Of course I have tried it. :icon_rolleyes:


You set each Kontakt instance to have it's own MIDI port and set the MIDI channel to Omni, and then you split it up in Kontakt.


Eh, I am not getting this. If I assign the first Kontakt instance to 1 Plug In MIDI in 1, ALL of those 16 instruments in that one Kontakt instance- MIDI chs 1 thro 16 - will be routed to the VE Pro instance in the Cubase VST rack, no? That limits me to 16 MIDI chs per one VE Pro instance, no? So if I want to add a second Kontakt instance to the VE Pro instance, I can, but I can't route the instruments in the 2nd instance seperately into Cubase - no?

[paulwr]

omni can be a very bad thing in a computer farm. Could blow the whole sucker up!

-pAUL

[Animus]

Of course I have tried it. :icon_rolleyes:



Eh, I am not getting this. If I assign the first Kontakt instance to 1 Plug In MIDI in 1, ALL of those 16 instruments in that one Kontakt instance- MIDI chs 1 thro 16 - will be routed to the VE Pro instance in the Cubase VST rack, no? That limits me to 16 MIDI chs per one VE Pro instance, no? So if I want to add a second Kontakt instance to the VE Pro instance, I can, but I can't route the instruments in the 2nd instance seperately into Cubase - no?

You can load as many Kontakts as you want in one instance of VE Pro.

[RiffWraith]

You can load as many Kontakts as you want in one instance of VE Pro.


Yes you can - as I said. But again - what I do not get is how to assign chs 1 and on of the SECOND Kontakt instance to anywhere in Cubase independantly when the first Kontakt instance is uding chs 1 - 16.

[paulwr]

Yes you can - as I said. But again - what I do not get is how to assign chs 1 and on of the SECOND Kontakt instance to anywhere in Cubase independantly when the first Kontakt instance is uding chs 1 - 16.

So you are actually doing this with the demo, and hitting this roadblock? Seems counter to what I've been picking up about it so far.

Again, though, if this brick walls if for real, then the worst cast scenario would still be 8 instances of Kontakt x 16 instrument slots, as an example, and there are your 128 instruments. That isn't bad for one slave, and again, don't forget about Kontakt banks to multiply that by a lot. And the hopefully usable 64 stereo busses, though I'd use only about 8-16 stereo busses per slave if no problems were introduced into the slave or DAW by doing so.

Gotta get a test rolling, but I could loose my mind trying it in Reaper, robbing my Cubase key to do it. New key comes maybe Wed........ damn, I really want to know if this is viable, and if so, make plans around the new tech.

-Paul

[Bman]

Yes you can - as I said. But again - what I do not get is how to assign chs 1 and on of the SECOND Kontakt instance to anywhere in Cubase independantly when the first Kontakt instance is uding chs 1 - 16.

In the Inspector under output routing you will find listings for all the plugs you have loaded in the VST Instrument rack (of course) but also there should be a number of listings for Vienna Ensemble Pro. In my case there are 8 listings titled "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 1" to "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 8" each representing a separate midi port into VE Pro. This will will vary depending upon the number of ports you have selected under the preferences section of the VE Pro Server. (edit: use the VST3 version of the VE-Pro plugin)

If the first instance of Kontakt loaded into VE Pro is assigned to midi port 1 then all 16 midi channels will be accessable from the cubase inspector if "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 1" is selected. If the second instance of Kontakt in VE Pro is assigned midi port 2 then these 16 midi channels are accessable when selecting "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 2" in the inspector

Brett

[Bman]

Can anyone get program change messages to work in VE Pro?

I work with Kontakt banks and while all standard CC messages are transmitted fine, program change messages don't work when Kontakt is loaded within VE Pro.

Daryl?

Thanks - Brett

[RiffWraith]

In the Inspector under output routing you will find listings for all the plugs you have loaded in the VST Instrument rack (of course) but also there should be a number of listings for Vienna Ensemble Pro. In my case there are 8 listings titled "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 1" to "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 8" each representing a separate midi port into VE Pro. This will will vary depending upon the number of ports you have selected under the preferences section of the VE Pro Server. (edit: use the VST3 version of the VE-Pro plugin)

If the first instance of Kontakt loaded into VE Pro is assigned to midi port 1 then all 16 midi channels will be accessable from the cubase inspector if "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 1" is selected. If the second instance of Kontakt in VE Pro is assigned midi port 2 then these 16 midi channels are accessable when selecting "Vienna Ensemble Pro - 2" in the inspector

Brett

Gotcha - but I think you are missing what I am getting at.

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can:

Launch Cubase
Launch VE Pro on slave, calling this instance "1"
In that VE Pro instance, insert an instance of Kontakt, load a multi with 16 instruments, each assigned to MIDI chs 1 - 16.
In the Cubase VST rack, load that VE Pro instance; the Cubase inspector now shows ONE listing for VE Pro
Create 16 MIDI chs, and route all of them to VE Pro "1"; Cubase MIDI ch 1 will trigger VE Pro 1's Kontakt ch 1, Cubase MIDI ch 2 will trigger VE Pro 1's Kontakt ch 2, all the way down to Cubase MIDI ch 16 triggering VE Pro 1's Kontakt ch 16. Works just fine.
Now here is where I am stuck. From previous posts in this thread, it seems to me that you are able to load a second instance of Kontakt in VE Pro "1", load a multi in that second instance of Kontakt, and have the ability to independantly trigger the instruments in that second instance of Kontakt. I can not do this. If I load a second instance of Kontakt in VE Pro "1", I can not trigger those instruments without triggering the instruments in the first Kontakt instance. This is why earlier I said that the only way to go is to use one Kontakt instance per VE Pro instance. And when you need more chs/instruments, you would load a 2nd instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in there, load that 2nd VE Pro instance in Cubase's VST rack, create more MIDI chs, route them to VE Pro "2", and off you go. But again, it seems as if people are saying that this is not necessary. I still do not see how. So, can someone explain this to me, please?

Thanks! :)

[Bman]

Are you launching the standalone version of VE Pro Riff? When I installed VE-Pro there were 4 shortcuts to programs in the Start Menu (I'm on a PC);
Vienna Ensemble Pro
Vienna Ensemble Pro (64-bit)
Vienna Ensemble Pro Server
Vienna Ensemble Pro Server (64-bit)

I launch the Vienna Ensemble Pro Server app first then launch Cubase.

If you're trying to launch from 'explorer' or from 'my computer' I noticed there are not 4 programs in the install folder but rather 2 but looking at the properties for the shortcut that lives in my start menu I see that there's a " -server" tag after the app itself which obviously loads the program in server mode.

So, if you load the VEP Server first, then Cubase, then the VEP VST3 plugin, then Connect and select a new available slave, 8 ports should be visible in the inspector.

At least that's how it works here :)
I must say, not having used VE3 I'm finding the manual less than intuitive.

Now if anyone can test if VEP can receive program change messges for me....

Brett

[Daryl]

Yes you can - as I said. But again - what I do not get is how to assign chs 1 and on of the SECOND Kontakt instance to anywhere in Cubase independantly when the first Kontakt instance is uding chs 1 - 16.

Yes, Bman has it. try this:

Load a VE Pro ///
Delete the default VI (jsut so we only have Kontakt to deal with
Load a Kontakt instance
Set the MIDI port to Port 1
Set the MIDI cahnnel to Omni
Load up to 16 different instruments in Kontakt, all on their own MIDI tracks.

The only snag is that you can only use 1 audio output within this instance of Kontakt.

So the limitation, per instance of VE Pro is:

32 instances of Kontakt
16 MIDI channels each instance, but only 1 output.

Total of 512 MIDI tracks and 32 VSTi Outputs.

I hope that this helps.

D

[Daryl]

Can anyone get program change messages to work in VE Pro?

I work with Kontakt banks and while all standard CC messages are transmitted fine, program change messages don't work when Kontakt is loaded within VE Pro.

Daryl?

Thanks - Brett

I haven't tried program changes, so I can't help you there. I know that Vienna Instruments is not designed to work with them (well not very well, which is one of the many reasons I use keyswitches). Maybe post on the VSL forum and ask?

D

[Daryl]

Riff, let me ask a few simple questions, and please don't be insulted: :D

1) Are you using the VST3 version of the plug?
2) Have you set up the number of MIDI ports you want in the server Preferences (up to 32, I think)
3) When you assign the instance of VE Pro in the Inspector, are you making sure that you have the correct port assigned?
4) Have you set the MIDI input in VE Pro to be the second MIDI port?

For the rest, read my previous post.

D

[Bman]

I haven't tried program changes, so I can't help you there. I know that Vienna Instruments is not designed to work with them (well not very well, which is one of the many reasons I use keyswitches). Maybe post on the VSL forum and ask?

D

Now you're scaring me Daryl. I've been looking forward to VE Pro for ages, limping along with FXT. I've already asked the question on the VSL forums and of VSL tech support.

Overall VE Pro is a very impressive product, but not being able to receive prg chg messages seems like a fundamental error in something designed to host 3rd party plugs. Almost all synths for example rely on prg chg messages to change patches and if VE Pro can't do this it would likely to be a deal breaker for me, particularly as I rely so heavily on Kontakt's instrument banks. Let's see...

Also, as you pointed out above, the audio routing is a little clumsy for multi-timbral instruments like kontakt, especially in comparison to FXT. Having to route additional stereo outs from kontakt or omni through VE Pro inputs and then back out into Cubase is a little clumsy and makes labelling and keeping track of things awkward.

Brett

[Daryl]

Overall VE Pro is a very impressive product, but not being able to receive prg chg messages seems like a fundamental error in something designed to host 3rd party plugs. Almost all synths for example rely on prg chg messages to change patches and if VE Pro can't do this it would likely to be a deal breaker for me, particularly as I rely so heavily on Kontakt's instrument banks. Let's see...

Brett you have to realise that VE Pro is not designed specifically to Host 3rd party plugs. It's designed to host Vienna Instruments, along with some 3rd part plugs. Vienna Instruments doesn't really use program changes, so until now it hasn't been a priority. However, the software guys are really good, so I'm sure that this can be accommodated in time.



Also, as you pointed out above, the audio routing is a little clumsy for multi-timbral instruments like kontakt, especially in comparison to FXT. Having to route additional stereo outs from kontakt or omni through VE Pro inputs and then back out into Cubase is a little clumsy and makes labelling and keeping track of things awkward.

Brett
It's only clumsy because you are loading a mulittimbral instrument in a slot that was designed for a mono timbral instrument. If you load 1 Kontakt instance per slot for one instrument, or group of instruments that you would normally use the same output for, it is fine. Don't forget that you can have up to 512 instances of Kontakt loaded per VE Pro instance, and also have up to 64 stereo Outputs.

The real problem is the limit if the number of instances of VE Pro. There is currently no workaround for that, so those people using dinosaur sequencers such as Logic and DP are going to struggle.

D

[Daryl]

Now you're scaring me Daryl. I've been looking forward to VE Pro for ages, limping along with FXT. I've already asked the question on the VSL forums and of VSL tech support.

Brett

And you now have your answer. Not the one I was expecting. :icon_eek3:

D

[Bman]

Brett you have to realise that VE Pro is not designed specifically to Host 3rd party plugs. It's designed to host Vienna Instruments, along with some 3rd part plugs. Vienna Instruments doesn't really use program changes, so until now it hasn't been a priority.
D

Yes, fair call. While I own Opus 1 and 2 I'm not familiar with the VI line.


And you now have your answer. Not the one I was expecting. :icon_eek3:
D

Hmmm. So I tried this out this morning and indeed instantiating the VST2 VE Pro plug allows program changes. But as we know this restricts things to a single midi port allowing for only 16 channels.

So I think to myself, perhaps this isn't so bad. Given my heavy dependence upon Kontakts instrument banks I probably only need to load 4 - 5 Kontakts which equals 4 - 5 VE Pro VST2s and I can load the reamaining synths etc that don't need to receive program change messages (Omni, RMX etc) on a VST3 version of VE Pro and still keep under the limit of eight VE Pro plugs in total.

Except for the CPU hit. As an experiment I loaded all eight VST2 versions of VE Pro and loaded a single K3.5 into each. Then I loaded a string multi into the first Kontakt and patched an Aux back into the host upon which I loaded a single Roomworks reverb. Playing a simple stac string patch live had the CPU ticking at 10% on average.

Then I removed all the VE Pros and loaded eight K3.5s into Cubase directly via the VST Instrument rack, loaded the same multi into the 1st Kontakt and patched it into the Verb, started playing and the CPU sits at 2-3%.

I know it's quite obvious that more separate VE Pros would use more CPU, but given that I'm looking at using a single machine maybe I should take another look at JBridge.


It's only clumsy because you are loading a mulittimbral instrument in a slot that was designed for a mono timbral instrument. If you load 1 Kontakt instance per slot for one instrument, or group of instruments that you would normally use the same output for, it is fine.
D

Makes sense. Maybe I should look at how I work. At the moment, for example, I might have a single Reverb in Cubase itself, but I can set up each separate Kontakt (either loaded locally or on FXT slaves) to send via the Aux busses to that single Reverb instance saving me loading more than one of that type of reverb. It's a great system because each individual instrument in every instance of Kontakt, even instruments contained within Banks, can have it's own individual send to that particular reverb which for orchestral writing is great given that sometimes within a library, say symphobia, some patches need more verb than others. However using Kontakt with VE Pro, which as you say was not really designed with multitimbral VSTis in mind, is certainly more fiddly, and labelling is less clear within the Cubase VST instruments folder. I guess once a template is set up though... :eusa_think:

I'll post this in the VSL forum as well, thanking Martin for his response and see if any others chime in.

Brett

[RiffWraith]

Riff, let me ask a few simple questions, and please don't be insulted: :D

1) Are you using the VST3 version of the plug?
2) Have you set up the number of MIDI ports you want in the server Preferences (up to 32, I think)
3) When you assign the instance of VE Pro in the Inspector, are you making sure that you have the correct port assigned?
4) Have you set the MIDI input in VE Pro to be the second MIDI port?

For the rest, read my previous post.

D

What - me insulted???? Screw you!!!! :rotfl:

ok, here goes:

1) Huh? There are multiple versions? Ok, I am lost here - I have the demo version, and Cubase is reporting that it is VST 2.4. Ummm....

2) Set to 32

3) Well, yeah - I can't screw that up, as there is only one option:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/vepro1.jpg

4) AH - ok, now we are getting somewhere. Thanks to what you said there, I just tried something I hadn't before: in VE Pro, I set Kontakt instanace 1 to MIDI in: 1, and the 2nd Kontakt instance to MIDI in: 2 ---- now, Cubase only triggers Kontakt instanace 1 - great. But now how to get Cubase to trigger Kontakt instanace 2?

[Daryl]

Brett, ignore the CPU %. It is a red herring. what you need to do is look at the ASIO Performance. then using VSTi it is very rare that I can get over 50-60% without pops and clicks, but using regular plugs I can get over 90% without a problem.

D

[Daryl]

Riff, the multiple MIDI ports per instance only exist with VST3, so you can't use them with the VST2 plug.

D

[Bman]

Brett, ignore the CPU %. It is a red herring. what you need to do is look at the ASIO Performance. then using VSTi it is very rare that I can get over 50-60% without pops and clicks, but using regular plugs I can get over 90% without a problem.

D

The ASIO meter was mirroring the CPU meter in my case if that's what you mean. They both headed up using eight instances of K3.5 in VE Pro rather than eight in the VST Inst rack.

Brett

[RiffWraith]

Riff, the multiple MIDI ports per instance only exist with VST3, so you can't use them with the VST2 plug.

D

AHHHHH!!! I was using the VST2 plug. Now with 3, I have mulitple ports, and can now assign mulitple Kontakt instances independantly from within one VE Pro instance. Thanks!

Wierd thing is - when set to 2 buffers (or 1, for that matter), there is obvious latency on recording, but not on playback. I loaded a tymp into Kontakt in VE Pro on my slave, and then the same tymp into an instance of Kontakt locally:

pb, then record (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/VEPTEST.mp3)

Why is that?

[The Guru]

AHHHHH!!! I was using the VST2 plug. Now with 3, I have mulitple ports, and can now assign mulitple Kontakt instances independantly from within one VE Pro instance. Thanks!

Wierd thing is - when set to 2 buffers (or 1, for that matter), there is obvious latency on recording, but not on playback. I loaded a tymp into Kontakt in VE Pro on my slave, and then the same tymp into an instance of Kontakt locally:

pb, then record (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/VEPTEST.mp3)

Why is that?

http://www.cubendo.com/showpost.php?p=16479&postcount=15

[Daryl]

AHHHHH!!! I was using the VST2 plug. Now with 3, I have mulitple ports, and can now assign mulitple Kontakt instances independantly from within one VE Pro instance. Thanks!

Wierd thing is - when set to 2 buffers (or 1, for that matter), there is obvious latency on recording, but not on playback. I loaded a tymp into Kontakt in VE Pro on my slave, and then the same tymp into an instance of Kontakt locally:

pb, then record (http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/VEPTEST.mp3)

Why is that?

Riff, I have no idea what you're doing. Could you please post a detailed repro of your method, what was loaded at each time, PDC on or off in Cubase etc. so that we can see what you're talking about as well as hear. It would also help if you used a dry sample that sounds something like a proper instrument. :wink:

D

[RiffWraith]

Riff, I have no idea what you're doing.

I said what I did!!! :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

A tympani is not a proper instrument? :eusa_think: I figured drums would be a good test.

Load an instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in VE PRo
Load an instance of Kontakt in Cubase
Load a typmani in the VE Pro Kontakt instance, and the same tympani in the Cubase Kontakt instance
Route 1st MIDI ch to, Cubase Kontakt instance; 2nd MIDI ch to VE Pro Kontakt instance
Record some drum hits on MIDI ch 1
Copy/Paste event to MIDI ch 2
Playback, and both MIDI chs are in sync
Trigger both Kontakt instances simul (both MIDI chs record enabled) and both MIDI chs are NOT in sync

There was no difference with FX-T.

BTW, what is PDC? I know it as Primary Domain Controller.

[The Guru]

Did you follow my link?

PDC= Plugin Delay Compensation.

[Vinark]

PDC is plugin delay compensation. This is expected behaviour if I understand you correctly. Is the stuf in sync when you record (out of sync) and then play back? If it is, all is fine. I can't see how FXT would behave differently since PDC works by sending the midi (and/or audio) early and you can't do that when playing life (live?).

OOPS! we posted at the same time Mr Guru......(always address a guru with proper respect:icon_lol:)

[RiffWraith]

Did you follow my link?

PDC= Plugin Delay Compensation.

I try not to follow you wherever I go. :iconyfcys3:


Is the stuf in sync when you record (out of sync) and then play back?

Out of sync during recording, in sync upon pb.

Not sure why FX-T would behave differently, but it does - I just checked. Tho to be honest, it's on a different computer with a different OS. That can;t be it, could it?

[Vinark]

Could be that the other system is using PDC differently. If for whatever reason the local kontakt is also compensated they would be in sync (but both 1 buffer late) If the are out of sync it means the local one is on time and the vienna one the vienna buffer setting late, as it should be. So I don't think there is a problem. I will check later how it works here with FXT, havn't installed vienna demo yet. If you increase the number of buffers in FXT does it still stay in sync? That would be really odd:willy_nilly:

[Daryl]

I said what I did!!! :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Actually you didn't. In fact you didn't even say that you played anything. :icon_eek3:

However, your repro is now clear.




A tympani is not a proper instrument? :eusa_think: I figured drums would be a good test.


Well, all jokes aside, I didn't know if the out of sync flanging that I was hearing was the sample, badly aligned mike positions, or reverb. :wink:





Load an instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in VE PRo
Load an instance of Kontakt in Cubase
Load a typmani in the VE Pro Kontakt instance, and the same tympani in the Cubase Kontakt instance
Route 1st MIDI ch to, Cubase Kontakt instance; 2nd MIDI ch to VE Pro Kontakt instance
Record some drum hits on MIDI ch 1
Copy/Paste event to MIDI ch 2
Playback, and both MIDI chs are in sync
Trigger both Kontakt instances simul (both MIDI chs record enabled) and both MIDI chs are NOT in sync

There was no difference with FX-T.

I'm not sure how this all works. On the one hand one could assume that VE would report the latency to Cubase, which would then accommodate. However, it seems not to be the case. However, it is immaterial really, because what is important is that whatever track you record is in sync with the previously recoded tracks, no ,matter what machine they are hosted on. Is this the case?

D

[The Guru]

• Setting the Latency to “none” will synchronize Vienna Ensemble PRO with your soundcard, so that
no latency is added – while very good for recording percussive sounds, this also adds a lot of strain
to the CPU.

• Setting the Latency to “1 buffer” will add one buffer to your soundcard latency. If your soundcard
latency is, e.g., 256 Samples, your latency when playing live will be 512 samples.

• Setting the Latency to “2 buffers” will add 2 buffers to your soundcard latency. If your soundcard
latency is, e.g., 256 Samples, your latency when playing live will be 768 samples.

Generally speaking: The faster your CPU and the better your soundcard, the more you can expect from
your system!

We suggest to use a low latency in your soundcard and keep the latency setting at “2 buffers”.

:icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:

[Daryl]

Yes, he did. But sharp as he is, still worth checking. If I have time tonight I'll be trying this out on Reaper so I can plug the cubase key into a slave. The software should say when you load it up, what the demo terms are.

-Paul
OK, I ahve the answer. Allan was wrong, and I was right. :D

It is a 30 day demo. Therefore if there are any audio dropouts, it is the fault of either the system or the VSL software.

D

[Vinark]

OK I checked FXT here. When FXT runs on a slave it is NOT in sync. When I run FXT local it is in sync. So are you running FXT and Vienna locally or on a slave?

[Vinark]

OK, I ahve the answer. Allan was wrong, and I was right. :D

It is a 30 day demo. Therefore if there are any audio dropouts, it is the fault of either the system or the VSL software.

D
Thanks....

[paulwr]

OK, I ahve the answer. Allan was wrong, and I was right. :D

It is a 30 day demo. Therefore if there are any audio dropouts, it is the fault of either the system or the VSL software.

D

Good to know. Imagine trying to demo something this complex and having dropouts as the 'cripple'!!

Thanks,
-Paul

[Daryl]

Good to know. Imagine trying to demo something this complex and having dropouts as the 'cripple'!!

Thanks,
-Paul
Yeah, time limited is by far the best way to go. BTW, you may run out of starts within the 30 days, but you can refresh those via the LCC.

D

[efernan]

Hi,

So, what's the real life latency we can expect?

A. Running the VE Pro server on the same computer.

B. Running VE Pro server in a networked slave.

Cheers!

[paulwr]

Hi,

So, what's the real life latency we can expect?

A. Running the VE Pro server on the same computer.

B. Running VE Pro server in a networked slave.

Cheers!

See post #113

-Paul

[efernan]

Hi again,


See post #113

-Paul

Yes, I already saw it. That's why I'm asking about the real life latency expected (over processing overhead).

Is it more efficient than FXT?

Could it be used at 128 samples host buffer without a big peformance hit? How is it at those different settings (no added buffer, +1 buffer, +2 buffers)?

How should this added buffer setting would be like with a heavy loaded (VE Pro) server running on a slave with no audio dropouts? Is it ok with just +1 buffer?

So... any real life info would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Daryl]

VE3 was always more efficient than FXT, but as I don't have any slave PCs, I can't answer your network questions.

However, I am using it on one PC at a buffer of 128 for the first half of the orchestra, and then I have to bump it up to 256 when everyone plays. I am using around 130 Vienna Instruments, with anything up to 80 playing at one time. I also use one track per instrument (not one track per articulation. this is on a 2.8Ghz dual Xeon, from 2008, with a template of around 24GB (all Preserved, of course....!)

I hope that this helps to answer your question.
D

[Bman]

Well, just to complicate matters I did another version of Riff's test, easily duplicatable...

New Cubase project with VST rack as follows
1. Atmosphere in Cubase
2. VE Pro with Atmosphere loaded inside (VE server is on local machine as I don't have a spare eLicenser dongle for my slave)
3. Atmosphere FX Teleported to a slave computer
4. Atmosphere FX Teleported to the local computer (running FXT server on the host machine)
5. Atmosphere in Cubase

Each of the 5 instruments have their own track and are triggered independantly. Atmosphere has a sine wave loaded on opening with a nice attack so I used this default sound for the test (also turned down the release to .0001 sec to make it nice and crisp). I also adjusted my soundcards buffer to 1024 to make everything nice and exaggerated and adjusted the FXT plugs to the same latency, and VEP to add 0 buffers latency. In other words everything is running at 1024. I recorded a few short notes in succession and duplicated across all the 5 tracks and found the following in soloing various combinations of tracks:

Tracks 1 and 5 are in perfect sync as one would expect. However, there is a slight but clearly audible delay between Track 1 and 2, 1 and 3, and 1 and 4. This delay in the VEP and FXT tracks is identical as soloing tracks 2 and 3 or tracks 2 and 4 reveals they are in perfect sync. This is very interesting because as a FXT owner I had always assumed that upon playback FXT would be in perfect sync with my host. However this is not the case for either FXT or VEP.

If I lower the buffer on my Lynx to 128 samples the delay between Atmosphere in the host and Atmosphere in either FXT or VEP is much smaller but still audible.

Still it gets more interesting. Read on....

I had assumed that this result would be mirrored with inputing (recording or playing) in real time. To test this, I record enabled various combinations of the 5 tracks and simply played. While the sync delay was identical (and still present) between Cubase and VEP (playing back tracks 1 and 2), the big surprise was that this delay was (subjectively) twice as great between Cubase and FXT (record enabling tracks 1 and 3, or 1 and 4)

So in summary (at least with my setup - no guarantees for anyone else!) while both FXT and VEP introduce a very slight delay on playback, this delay is larger for FXT during realtime playing.

I have no reason to expect that running this test with VEP on a slave once I get another dongle will be any different, given that results for FXT locally or on a slave were identical.

These results are the same with or without PDC enabled in Cubase. Unsurprising as I have no other plugins loaded that might increase latency over all.

Brett

btw, all this has come about because I'm testing VEP (and JBridge) as a replacement for FXT (yes I know, they are 2 very different products). The above post is just examining latency, not efficieny as you are interested in efernan. However I'll post on this shortly.

[paulwr]

I've just got it up and running. 32 bit VE Pro on a slave xp x64 and right now Kontakt2.4, 32 bit of course.

Right now I just receive on one midi port of 16ch per each instance, two instances. And just one stereo out buss for each instance, which I'll be trying in the big template to achieve One stereo buss for each string section, and one stereo buss for each solo instrument, so 8 stereo busses for the slave should be great if the systems can handle it. For this first little preview test, I have a few big banks on each instance in K2 and it is vst2 so program changes are working. DAW is at 256 samples latency, and the slave I'm testing is also 256

I'm at option2 on the latency, which is supposed to add another TWO layers of latency of the card.... so should be 758 samples PLUS my DAW's 256 because I'm NOT using direct monitoring. (Cubase 3.1)

Some things of interest so far:

1. Latency..... this should not feel this good. It's impossible, isn't it? I have no pianos on that machine, so I'm testing the 'playability' of it with a harpsichord. Its pretty tight feeling. Just sort of barely hinting to me there's some latency, but it isn't affecting my playing, I don't think. NO WAY, but way. I'm shocked.

If this continues, even once I get all the strings banks loaded, I'll say it is usable. Very usable from a latency standpoint, but I have to reserve final judgment for when I have the approx 390 instruments (banks being used, remember) loaded up.

2. I recorded and l lined up the audio with the midi. Seems completely tight by viewing at very high magnification. I guess it is communicating the latency over the network and adjusting, otherwise impossible. I haven't tried concocting phase cancellation tests yet. We're talking midi parts and I'm not sure that quite matters.

3. Problem here that VSL says on their forum they plan of fixing: SAVE is just screwed with this thing. Your save goes deep into all of the VE Pro stuff on the slave. A one second slave is now 12 sec. with only 1/10th of my template on just the strings slave. NOT workable with a whole farm if you plan on saving. BUT if you 'disconnect' the sequencer from the VSL VE Pro slave (at the Cubase instrument slot there is a button for that on the VLS "instrument") then it saves as normal. VSL says they are going to see if they can build a feature to not save the whole VSL VE Pro data, and hopefully they can. A guy on the VSL forum stated his normally 1 sec save turned into 45 sec. I can't subject myself to that.

So that is just this evenings first impression, and I'll bet it is info duplicated elsewhere, esp by Daryl who's taken a lot of time helping out here with this. Thanks, Daryl

Just read Brett's post above. I'll try some similar things here on my system later.

-Paul

[Bman]

And here's the last of it....

I've been testing VEP alongside JBridge as a replacement for FXT. I know JBridge (JB) is not capable of networking but both VEP and JBridge are both 32-bit and 64-bit and can be used on a single machine to overcome RAM limitations. Testing of VEP has only been on my local (host) computer as I don't yet have a 2nd eLicenser dongle for my slave. I have made comparisons using the VST Performance (ASIO meter) and CPU meter in task manager, as well as by using my ears of course.

To create a 'real world' trial I converted my last project from FXT to both VEP and JBridge to see which would run more efficiently at a given latency without crackles (I run a lot of VSTis so this is where my interest lies). Note that my findings are likely to be relevant for my setup alone as there are too many variable such as your computer, how well your drivers are written etc.

I noticed that in examining the ASIO and CPU meters that there was really very little difference between VEP and JB at each latency setting (tested 64,
128 and 256) although arguably VEP was a touch hungrier at an overall latency of 64 samples when set on it's "0 buffers" setting. However, and here's the important bit for me at least, VEP could run right down to 64 samples (at either "0, 1 or 2 buffers" setting on the VEP interface) without crackles for the given cues I was playing back, whereas JB had regular dropouts. at 64 and very occasional dropouts at 128 and 256. VE Pro just seemed more robust. Strangely this was mirorred in the ASIO overload light as well. While at 64 samples the ASIO meter jumps about and flashes regularly for both VEP and JB, at 128 and 256 samples the ASIO light no longer was flashing for VEP. Strange that VEP appears to be more efficient/results in fewer dropouts at lower latencies when the ASIO meter itself (with the excpetion of the overload light) is the same between VEP and JB. Still, VEP wins for me. And if they ever figure out how to get the VST3 version of VEP to receive program change messages it will be even better (which means I have to use the VST2 versions of VEP for the most part and of course running more VST2 versions of VEP rather than a single VST3 version (which has multiple ports available) increases the CPU and ASIO hit at low latencies - see my post here (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/22789.aspx?PageIndex=4)

There's another big bonus for VEP over JB too. The same project loaded up with JB used over 15% more RAM than VEP. Go figure.

So in conclusion...
VEP saves RAM but costs CPU at very low latencies and is far more fiddly to setup with respect to audio routing then either JB or FXT (actually, audio routing in VEP reminds me of the convolutions I had to perform working with multitimbral instruments in Logic 5.5).
VEP seems to me to be more efficient allowing glitch free playback at lower latencies than JB not to mention all the other features like networking and Preserve
JB is cheaper by far and is much easier to use, but it uses more RAM and has to be run at higher latencies to avoid glitches.

I also couldn't get FXT glitch free at 64 and 128 samples unless I have FXT's buffer set at the equivalent of 3 or 2 buffers above respectively which makes VEP more efficient at low latencies compared to FXT in my eyes.

FWIW here's the %Asio and %CPU meter results at 128 samples during playback of 2 separate cues. There's very little in it between JB and VEP on the numbers alone but maybe if I had a busier cue with more instruments and effects differences would be seen at the top end of the scale. I guess that's why we should all use our ears rather than rely on CPU or ASIO meters for anything more than a rough guide...

--------------------Asio--------CPU
-----------------Cue1- Cue2--Cue1-Cue2
FXT-------------25----30----13----14
Jbridge----------43----60----17----22
VEP '0 buffers'---41----59----18----23
VEP '1 buffer'----38----57----19----25
VEP '2 buffers'---36----58----19----24


Whew. Time for a rest.
Brett

[paulwr]

Great info, Brett. Thanks.

Hey, have you noticed your save time? My be problematic here.

Of note also, is that VE Pro doesn't have to be used over the network. It also responds to any midi and audio ports/channels and makes what is looking to be a pretty good host for a lot of things. I may check further into that.

-Paul

[Bman]

Hmm...just noticed another possible VEP problem

It seems that overall latency is not passed to the host for correct Plugin Delay Compensation when using insert effects within VEP that have a large delay.

For example, load up a cpu intensive plugin with a large delay like a multiband compressor into an insert slot within VE Pro, and hosts like cubase with plugin delay compensation cannot adjust for this additional latency upon playback. This means that this VE Pro track is out of sync with the rest of the project. Is this right?

Perhaps this is to be expected, and insert effects with large delays should not be used inside VEP but rather inside Cubase itself

Brett

[Vinark]

Hmm...just noticed another possible VEP problem

It seems that overall latency is not passed to the host for correct Plugin Delay Compensation when using insert effects within VEP that have a large delay.

For example, load up a cpu intensive plugin with a large delay like a multiband compressor into an insert slot within VE Pro, and hosts like cubase with plugin delay compensation cannot adjust for this additional latency upon playback. This means that this VE Pro track is out of sync with the rest of the project. Is this right?

Perhaps this is to be expected, and insert effects with large delays should not be used inside VEP but rather inside Cubase itself

Brett
This can even have worse implications. Does VEP have any PDC within itself? If you process one track inside VEP with a high latency plug is it still in sync with the rest of the tracks inside VEP?

[paulwr]

This can even have worse implications. Does VEP have any PDC within itself? If you process one track inside VEP with a high latency plug is it still in sync with the rest of the tracks inside VEP?

I don't understand how it would selectively correct for vsti's and not also vst's. That seems very odd.

Brett, did you arrive that the latency conclusion about heavy cpu vst plugs withing VE Pro through your own testing?

-Paul

[Bman]

This can even have worse implications. Does VEP have any PDC within itself? If you process one track inside VEP with a high latency plug is it still in sync with the rest of the tracks inside VEP?

Good question Vinark - I hadn't thought of that. Your fears are well founded, indeed if you put a compressor with latency on one track inside VEP it is now out of sync with a 2nd track without the compressor. Bypass the effect and both tracks are again in sync. Easy to test. Please someone tell me I'm mistaken because this limits the usefulness of VEP only to those plugs that don't have latency.

@Paul, yes I just tried it here. I hope I'm wrong. This, plus the VST2 VEP not receiving Program Change messages are a bit of a downer for me.

Brett

[Vinark]

Well if they want to fix this they will have a hell of a job. Then VEP has to be able to have variable latency reporting to the host and it's own latency compensating system (and the report the highest latency plug plus the network latency to the host). If it remains like this (which is very possible) we will have to use only no latency plugs and use the once that have latency in the host. One other issue I can think of is what about the convolution engine in Kontakt? Doesn't that one also cause latency?

[Daryl]

A couple of things:

There has been talk about the lack of internal PDC. martin seems to be of the view that it makes things far too complicated. In terms of live playing at low latencies, i wold agree, but i do think that there is a need to make sure that everything within each VE Pro is in sync with itself. Is this not the case?

Another interesting thing to note. If you insert a latency heavy effect, it will not be compensated for until the second playback. this is because the sequencer can't know in advance what you've just done. those of you testing anything with VE Pro must bear this in mind, and make sure that you repeat all tests, and not just do them once and move on.

One more thing. those of you working on local mode have no need to set a buffer at all. i have found that it makes no difference to performance of either Cubendo or VE Pro.

Finally, just be aware that it is possible to auoload not just the server, but the template as well, so those of you using slaves only have to switch your computers on and all the slaves will load and automatically connect as soon as you load your project. this only works well with Preserved Metaframes, in my experience, but it is worth thinking about.

For those of you with more questions, particularly those on a technical level, I suggest that you visit the VSL forum, where the software developers are actually allowed to post. Unlike other forums that we know so well.:wink:

D

[Animus]

No PDC on the slaves would be a deal breaker for me. Will investigate more when I have time.

[efernan]

Hi,

Thank you guys, execellent insight.

What caught my attention was this:


I'm at option2 on the latency, which is supposed to add another TWO layers of latency of the card.... so should be 758 samples PLUS my DAW's 256 because I'm NOT using direct monitoring. (Cubase 3.1)

Some things of interest so far:

1. Latency..... this should not feel this good. It's impossible, isn't it? I have no pianos on that machine, so I'm testing the 'playability' of it with a harpsichord. Its pretty tight feeling. Just sort of barely hinting to me there's some latency, but it isn't affecting my playing, I don't think. NO WAY, but way. I'm shocked.


At what sample rate was that? 1024 samples buffer @ 44.1 kHz, as we all know is 23 ms and 10 ms @ 96 kHz. I think that much more than 5-7 ms for MIDI starts to be noticed.

Cheers!

[paulwr]

Hi,

Thank you guys, execellent insight.

What caught my attention was this:



At what sample rate was that? 1024 samples buffer @ 44.1 kHz, as we all know is 23 ms and 10 ms @ 96 kHz. I think that much more than 5-7 ms for MIDI starts to be noticed.

Cheers!

My slave and DAW both at 256 sample rate latency, 44.1kHz. Like I said, I consider what I'm getting to be impossible given that VSL VE Pro manual says that at latency#2 setting should add TWO more layers of 256 sample latency. I'm putting together my full template for EWQLSO Platinum strings (Kontakt2.4 -almost 400 instruments spread among banks) and I'll be putting that though some paces. Means a lot more than just playing a few instruments manually, to be sure.

Something else to remember it VE Pro will also interact fully with MidiOverLan and Soundcards. It seems to be a good host in general, although the heavy resource plugins are smelling like a problem, but nothing I can't just choose to process at the input to the DAW rather than the slave, really. It MIGHT turn out better than Bidule, but I'm very novice with Bidule at the moment.

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

OK I checked FXT here. When FXT runs on a slave it is NOT in sync. When I run FXT local it is in sync. So are you running FXT and Vienna locally or on a slave?

Slave. Upon further invetigation, FX-T does NOT do what VE Pro does - there is NO difference in delay from either playback to record with FX-T, as there is with VE Pro. I have tried this at multiple latency/buffer settings - if I set the latency to 128, playback and record are the same. If I set the latency to 2048, playback and record are the same. There is a delay, but both are the same.

[Vinark]

Riff, Now you have lost me:D

[RiffWraith]

Riff, Now you have lost me:D

Well, you lost me first! :icon_yes: :icon_razz:

[RiffWraith]

In other news, I can not get VE Pro to either:

a) unload when closing Cubase, or

b) load when opening a saved project.

Please someone tell me I am missing something, and that this does not have to be done manually....

--edit-- Hold on, think I got it....gotta test this with a large project...bbs

--edit again-- ok, got it. You have to check "preserve instance" - which is off by default.

Now, I want to know why, after all of the instances are loaded, do I get a "close K after sample rate change message" when I click on a K instance?

[paulwr]

Slave. Upon further invetigation, FX-T does NOT do what VE Pro does - there is NO difference in delay from either playback to record with FX-T, as there is with VE Pro. I have tried this at multiple latency/buffer settings - if I set the latency to 128, playback and record are the same. If I set the latency to 2048, playback and record are the same. There is a delay, but both are the same.

I want to know what you mean, but I don't.

I just completed creating all my Kontakt multis for my complete strings template. I just need to get them into multiple VE Pro instances and then..... I'm going to apply a bunch of pressure and make it squirm and take notes......

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

I want to know what you mean, but I don't.

Yeah, I see that. :eusa_whistle: :icon_lol:

Here:

Load an instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in VE PRo
Load an instance of Kontakt in Cubase
Load an instr (drum, for ex.) in the VE Pro Kontakt instance, and the same exact instr in the Cubase Kontakt instance
Route 1st MIDI ch to Cubase Kontakt instance; 2nd MIDI ch to VE Pro Kontakt instance
Record some drum hits on MIDI ch 1
Copy/Paste event to MIDI ch 2
Playback, and both MIDI chs are in sync
Trigger both Kontakt instances simul (both MIDI chs record enabled) and both MIDI chs are NOT in sync

There is no difference with FX-T.

Hope that's clear. :)

[Animus]

Yeah, I see that. :eusa_whistle: :icon_lol:

Here:

Load an instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in VE PRo
Load an instance of Kontakt in Cubase
Load an instr (drum, for ex.) in the VE Pro Kontakt instance, and the same exact instr in the Cubase Kontakt instance
Route 1st MIDI ch to Cubase Kontakt instance; 2nd MIDI ch to VE Pro Kontakt instance
Record some drum hits on MIDI ch 1
Copy/Paste event to MIDI ch 2
Playback, and both MIDI chs are in sync
Trigger both Kontakt instances simul (both MIDI chs record enabled) and both MIDI chs are NOT in sync

There is no difference with FX-T.

Hope that's clear. :)


Could this have something to do with you record latency offset in your Cubendo preferences?

[RiffWraith]

Possibly - this is what I have:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/DevSetup.jpg

Change something to do a test?

[Animus]

I don't know. Just brainstorming..

[paulwr]

Yeah, I see that. :eusa_whistle: :icon_lol:

Here:

Load an instance of VE Pro, load an instance of Kontakt in VE PRo
Load an instance of Kontakt in Cubase
Load an instr (drum, for ex.) in the VE Pro Kontakt instance, and the same exact instr in the Cubase Kontakt instance
Route 1st MIDI ch to Cubase Kontakt instance; 2nd MIDI ch to VE Pro Kontakt instance
Record some drum hits on MIDI ch 1
Copy/Paste event to MIDI ch 2
Playback, and both MIDI chs are in sync
Trigger both Kontakt instances simul (both MIDI chs record enabled) and both MIDI chs are NOT in sync

There is no difference with FX-T.

Hope that's clear. :)

OK. Its supposed to be that way..... are you suggesting otherwise?

I'd be shocked if the live midi triggering of both instances of Kontakt (1 slave, 1 in sequencer) came back sounding at the exact same time. If you are monitoring through your sequencer (and not direct monitoring) then no matter how low the latency is in your slave setup/VE Pro, that gets added to your sequencers latency so it will always come in a little late compared to the sequencer, yes?? Am I still missing something here?

The question for all would be is this latency you'll be running at without pops/clicks...... is it usable for the instruments. Then, is plugin processing you want to run within VE Pro..... is it creating more latency? Is that aspect going to be a viable scenario?

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

OMG - soooooo many questions! :icon_lol:


I'd be shocked if the live midi triggering of both instances of Kontakt (1 slave, 1 in sequencer) came back sounding at the exact same time.


Uhh, yeah - that's what I am saying. The live midi triggering of both instances of Kontakt (1 slave, 1 in sequencer) DOES come back sounding at the exact same time. In FX-T, that is. Not in VE Pro.

Cheers.

[paulwr]

OMG - soooooo many questions! :icon_lol:




Uhh, yeah - that's what I am saying. The live midi triggering of both instances of Kontakt (1 slave, 1 in sequencer) DOES come back sounding at the exact same time. In FX-T, that is. Not in VE Pro.

Cheers.

Ha, and some guys are getting better latency using VE Pro than with fx-t. Strange. I don't see how fx-t could return sound from a slave at exactly the same time as onboard sound if you are 'live triggering'.

Anyway............ Jeff, do you see yourself using VE Pro or sidestepping it for now? For me it's more an issue of the save time from the project skyrocketing. The latency so far is usable. I'll know more by tomorrow.

-Paul

[Animus]

Ha, and some guys are getting better latency using VE Pro than with fx-t. Strange. I don't see how fx-t could return sound from a slave at exactly the same time as onboard sound if you are 'live triggering'.

Anyway............ Jeff, do you see yourself using VE Pro or sidestepping it for now? For me it's more an issue of the save time from the project skyrocketing. The latency so far is usable. I'll know more by tomorrow.

-Paul


Please report on the PDC issue too if you get a chance.

[Daryl]

Let me comment on a couple of things brought up about FXT.

The latency of FXT is fixed by the user. That means that your whole system will always be in sync with FXT, even when you play locally. Using FXT the argument for putting pianos and anything percussive on the local machine makes no sense, because everything is delayed.

Regarding the lack of PDC within VE Pro itself, I have done no testing, but I would be interested to see how any other VST hosts that act as plugins would behave. In order for it to work the plug would need to report its latency to the VSTi Host, which would then have to report its latency to the sequencer PC at the end of the network. Does this happen? The best test would be to use another VST host in FXT loading Kontakt, with a heavy latency plug on one channel and then not on another.

FWIW, all this stalk about latency and being in sync is very important, but when trying to work at the lowest latency, there is no way that you would use any high latency plugs anyway. Of course when mixing, if the soundcard buffer is much higher, this could make a big difference. However, you should know what delay each of your plugs gives (you can easily find out by checking the plug list in Cubendo, if you don't know) and then compensate with your track settings.

D

[Vinark]

OMG - soooooo many questions! :icon_lol:




Uhh, yeah - that's what I am saying. The live midi triggering of both instances of Kontakt (1 slave, 1 in sequencer) DOES come back sounding at the exact same time. In FX-T, that is. Not in VE Pro.

Cheers.
Not here ...FXT is late and later with more buffers.

[Animus]

Not here ...FXT is late and later with more buffers.


FXT has always been in sync here and I use it at a higher network latency.

[RiffWraith]

FXT has always been in sync here and I use it at a higher network latency.


Not here ...FXT is late and later with more buffers.

Wierd....

[Vinark]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
FXT has always been in sync here and I use it at a higher network latency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinark View Post
Not here ...FXT is late and later with more buffers.
Wierd....


Wierd....
It's in sync when playing back of course (PDC), but not in sync when in record (as expected, pdc can't know ahead what I will be playing)

[Daryl]

I think that we are getting mixed up with latency, late, sync.

AFAIK it depends on your setup and workflow how late VE Pro is. With FXT it is always the same. Very late......! However, both should be in sync on playback.

I have converted my setup to VE Pro, and now am a very happy bunny. The quick change of project is a life saver. For the first time ever yesterday, I got a corrupt project, which meant that I couldn'f save, and I was up and running again within a minute.

Oh, and lemmings don't rush off cliffs. Disney caused that for the film by driving a tractor at them, so they were fleeing to escape that. :wink:

D

[The Guru]

Yeah, sorry. :D

Maybe a mod can sweep out the clutter. :eusa_whistle:

[paulwr]

I have converted my setup to VE Pro, and now am a very happy bunny. The quick change of project is a life saver. For the first time ever yesterday, I got a corrupt project, which meant that I couldn'f save, and I was up and running again within a minute.

D

I'm guessing you're pretty heavily loaded in VE Pro and all on one computer. About how many instruments/instances? And how does that impact your save time in your project? For me its a pretty big issue.

Thanks,
-Paul

[Daryl]

I'm guessing you're pretty heavily loaded in VE Pro and all on one computer. About how many instruments/instances? And how does that impact your save time in your project? For me its a pretty big issue.

Thanks,
-Paul
I have around 23GB, 5 instances, 120 Instruments. Saving takes around 16 seconds.

D

[paulwr]

I have around 23GB, 5 instances, 120 Instruments. Saving takes around 16 seconds.

D

Those instruments are the big vsl multis for triggering tons of articulations, I'm sure.

16 sec is about the max I'd want to live with, and for what you have loaded, that is pretty good. Apparently it is a longer save cycle when slaves are involved.

You may have stated this before, but how long does it take you to load your template?

-Paul

[Daryl]

You may have stated this before, but how long does it take you to load your template?

-Paul
About half an hour.

BTW did you sort out your re-load date licence on dongle thing?

D

[paulwr]

About half an hour.

BTW did you sort out your re-load date licence on dongle thing?

D

Not yet. Frankly, I tried so many ways that I can't imagine it working. I'll check the VSL forum one more time to see if anyone came up with a viable approach. Meanwhile, I don't need VE Pro just yet. I have rme cards in all the machines right now though I can only receive up to 8 stereo busses at the moment. So I can wait until I do my next upgrade of the DAW to i7, and relegate the Q6600 to slave status..... and get my paws on LASS!!

-Paul

[Daryl]

Not yet. Frankly, I tried so many ways that I can't imagine it working. I'll check the VSL forum one more time to see if anyone came up with a viable approach. Meanwhile, I don't need VE Pro just yet. I have rme cards in all the machines right now though I can only receive up to 8 stereo busses at the moment. So I can wait until I do my next upgrade of the DAW to i7, and relegate the Q6600 to slave status..... and get my paws on LASS!!

-Paul
I'm sure I posted how to do it on the VSL forum hours ago? Was it not clear then?

D

[paulwr]

I'm sure I posted how to do it on the VSL forum hours ago? Was it not clear then?

D

Thanks, I'll give that method a try late tonight or tomorrow.
-Paul

[paulwr]

I'm sure I posted how to do it on the VSL forum hours ago? Was it not clear then?

D

Your instructions must have been for the old version of the 'control center' or whatever they call it.

I was trying to do it right before, but their website was screwing up. It worked this time. The "Validate Usage Periods" button was usable, finally, and one click on it updated the license. Previously the button greyed out..... no idea why.

-Paul

[Animus]

Tested PDC tonight. Firing a snare in a host loaded Kontakt triggered on time with a slave VEP Kontakt. However as soon as I loaded a plugin on the inserts of VEP timing went to hell. THis makes having mixing capability on the slaves kind of pointless.

[Daryl]

Your instructions must have been for the old version of the 'control center' or whatever they call it.

I was trying to do it right before, but their website was screwing up. It worked this time. The "Validate Usage Periods" button was usable, finally, and one click on it updated the license. Previously the button greyed out..... no idea why.

-Paul
Ah, yes. I never update to the latest eLicencer, LCC, or anything like that unless I have to. Glad it's all sorted though.

D

[Daryl]

Tested PDC tonight. Firing a snare in a host loaded Kontakt triggered on time with a slave VEP Kontakt. However as soon as I loaded a plugin on the inserts of VEP timing went to hell. THis makes having mixing capability on the slaves kind of pointless.
Well, it all depends on whether the timing is constantly at the same "to hell", or not. As we all know, there are various sequencers where you don't even have PDC, so those users get used to putting in the effort manually. :wink:

D

[paulwr]

Well, crap. I've put all this time late into the morning refining templates..... only to finally take off my dunce cap to realize this VE Pro thing will not help me make stems faster at all. It is setup, obviously, into the vst instruments of the sequencer, and you cannot record tracks separately in one pass like you can with incoming audio as inputs. Inputs you can record as separate tracks.
Duh.................... Otherwise I'm really liking it.

Hey, in Cubase 5, can you 'send' to an input????? that would make it happen. And I don't know much about VST3, but I doubt it has the capability I'm after, which is to record up to around 48-64 tracks in one pass, and thus have all stems made at once.

Or, I guess you could save on half as many audio cards if you setup a bunch of outputs in the sequencer for the vst channels to go to, and just shoot back in as inputs and record those. No cards on the slaves, but a couple of 9652 cards would give 48 tracks minus the output buss to the monitors. A single MADI would give 64 channels. I need to see if it has foldback. You could then skip the ADAT interface box and save a lot.

Just thinking out loud while tired!

-Paul

[Daryl]

Well, crap. I've put all this time late into the morning refining templates..... only to finally take off my dunce cap to realize this VE Pro thing will not help me make stems faster at all. It is setup, obviously, into the vst instruments of the sequencer, and you cannot record tracks separately in one pass like you can with incoming audio as inputs. Inputs you can record as separate tracks.
Duh.................... Otherwise I'm really liking it.


-Paul

Huh? I do 80 or so tracks in one pass? What's the problem? Just route each VSTi Input to a group or dummy output and then set that to be the input for the audio track. In fact my template is set up so that all the audio tracks are in one folder with monitor switched on, so that all I have to do is record enable the folder, press record, and away I go.

D

[azeteg]

Those instruments are the big vsl multis for triggering tons of articulations, I'm sure.

16 sec is about the max I'd want to live with, and for what you have loaded, that is pretty good. Apparently it is a longer save cycle when slaves are involved.

You may have stated this before, but how long does it take you to load your template?

-Paul

Saving should be speeded up about 4 times with the next update. I've also added a "decouple" feature to the connector plugin, that allows you NOT to save any data from the slave, if you so wish. This makes the connector plugin save just the connection information (IP, persistent session etc).


--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH

[Daryl]

Saving should be speeded up about 4 times with the next update. I've also added a "decouple" feature to the connector plugin, that allows you NOT to save any data from the slave, if you so wish. This makes the connector plugin save just the connection information (IP, persistent session etc).


--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Thanks Martin, and welcome.....! :D

D

[kdm]

Saving should be speeded up about 4 times with the next update. I've also added a "decouple" feature to the connector plugin, that allows you NOT to save any data from the slave, if you so wish. This makes the connector plugin save just the connection information (IP, persistent session etc).


--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH

Welcome to the forum Martin! Thanks for info on the next update.

[paulwr]

Saving should be speeded up about 4 times with the next update. I've also added a "decouple" feature to the connector plugin, that allows you NOT to save any data from the slave, if you so wish. This makes the connector plugin save just the connection information (IP, persistent session etc).


--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH


Thanks for the info. And VERY NICE to be hearing directly from marketing development.

-Paul

[paulwr]

Huh? I do 80 or so tracks in one pass? What's the problem? Just route each VSTi Input to a group or dummy output and then set that to be the input for the audio track. In fact my template is set up so that all the audio tracks are in one folder with monitor switched on, so that all I have to do is record enable the folder, press record, and away I go.

D

Ah, I was hoping if I upgraded from Cubase 3.1 that I'd be able to get this to work. But it doesn't look like that feature is available in Cubase 5 either. From the feature details at Steinberg, only Nuendo specifies that ability. Hope that isn't the case. I wanted to stick with Cubase, since some of the new features in 5 aren't in Nuendo.

Just getting kind of nuts figuring out the path to embark on..........

-Paul

[Daryl]

Ah, I was hoping if I upgraded from Cubase 3.1 that I'd be able to get this to work. But it doesn't look like that feature is available in Cubase 5 either. From the feature details at Steinberg, only Nuendo specifies that ability. Hope that isn't the case. I wanted to stick with Cubase, since some of the new features in 5 aren't in Nuendo.


-Paul
This is possible in Cubase 4.5, so I'm sure it's possible in C5.

D

[paulwr]

This is possible in Cubase 4.5, so I'm sure it's possible in C5.

D

Appreciate the positive thinking, but it isn't bearing out in the C5 documentation or the C5 details section of the SB website. However, in the Nuendo details section they specify the ability to define groups as and audio track input, and even mention the purpose is for doing fast stems, which surprised me.

-Paul

[The Guru]

Appreciate the positive thinking, but it isn't bearing out in the C5 documentation or the C5 details section of the SB website. However, in the Nuendo details section they specify the ability to define groups as and audio track input, and even mention the purpose is for doing fast stems, which surprised me.

-Paul

As stated, you can route Groups and "dummy outs" of your soundcard to the inputs of audio tracks in C4. It's part of free routing.

[TAFKAT]

Thanks for the info. And VERY NICE to be hearing directly from marketing development.

-Paul

Paul,

Martin is actually one of the developers , straight from the source so to speak.. :D

[Animus]

Welcome to the forums Martin. VE Pro seems to be off to a good start.

[paulwr]

As stated, you can route Groups and "dummy outs" of your soundcard to the inputs of audio tracks in C4. It's part of free routing.

Boy, they sure don't word it well in the documentation for C5. Worded it very well in the Nuendo product details, though.

So, if I upgrade to C5, I have all the free routing that is in Nuendo? Really great news.

This is just for crystal clarity:
My vst track created from the VE Pro instance..... I can specify a dummy output, or even a group output...... and THEN I can create an audio track and choose that group or dummy output AS THE INPUT, and voila.... using this technique, I can set up a large template and I be makin' stems all over the place if I want, as Daryl does in Nuendo?

This is making my day!!!!!!!!!!! Man, there are half the posts here on the subject of VE Pro as there is at SoundsOnline, but WAY more usable knowledge being generated. Thanks, all!

Oh, I just finished doing a full strings template organized with lots of busses for stems. Looks to be working great. This VE Pro is a very nice, simple, elegant host. I'm impressed.

-Paul

[paulwr]

Paul,

Martin is actually one of the developers , straight from the source so to speak.. :D

...my bad, I knew that and worded my post badly. Feels great getting a response from 'the horses mouth' as it were. Nice that he's aware of this forum. Someone here tip him off? Oh, my final save time in Cubase with the full strings template (about 380 e/w instruments...all of the Platinum Strings in Kontakt 3.5) is 35 seconds, and ram usage running in 64bit is about the same as Kontakt 2.4 standalone in xp x64. 3.3GB. Not bad, to say the least.

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

Well, this is strange - maybe someone can explain this.

My Vista Ult. 64 slave had 4GB RAM. Total RAM usage with an empty VE Pro server running is 812 MB.

Now I create a project. I have two instances of VE Pro loaded, both connected to Cubase, both with several Kontakt 3.5 multis. Save project, close and reopen several times - total RAM usage was at 3.89 GB (on the slave). I add 4 GB, Vista sees that I now have a total of 8 GB - now I load that project and total RAM usage is at 4.76 - huh? I have added no instances/multis/patches; installed nothing, done nothing save for add the RAM. Someone explain this, por favor?

Cheers. :)

[paulwr]

Now that you have more ram, Vista may be setting more aside for itself?

-Paul

[RiffWraith]

Maybe? I don't know. The RAM usage is the same when I boot into Vista; and as I said, it's the same with the VE Pro server running (actually, the client). So....????

[paulwr]

If nothing else seems obvious to try, I would then keep loading samples in order to eventually hit the ram wall and see what happens along the way. I think I remember W7 start giving up ram for program usage. I LOVE how W7 handles resources.

-Paul

[Daryl]

This is just for crystal clarity:
My vst track created from the VE Pro instance..... I can specify a dummy output, or even a group output...... and THEN I can create an audio track and choose that group or dummy output AS THE INPUT, and voila.... using this technique, I can set up a large template and I be makin' stems all over the place if I want, as Daryl does in Nuendo?

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssss.

Two things to be aware of when you try this (eventually):

1) Make sure that the group or outputs are not connected, or you will hear the signal twice.

2) You will need to solo defeat all of the audio tracks that are connected to the groups, which also need to be solos defeated, and you will find other things (such as the main output) that needs to be solo defeated. If you don't, you will find that whenever you solo a MIDI track, you won't hear anything because various parts of your chain will mute. Apparently this is a feature. :icon_rolleyes:



This is making my day!!!!!!!!!!! Man, there are half the posts here on the subject of VE Pro as there is at SoundsOnline, but WAY more usable knowledge being generated. Thanks, all!

-Paul
Why would you expect them to know anything about VE Pro? Most of them have never even heard of VE3, so they would have no experience. Couple that with Doug trying to put a dampener on things, because of wanting to sell his own £15,000 network "solution" (a bit like announcing the new strings package just after LASS was released, even though there would be at least a 7 month delay) and it is not a conducive atmosphere to discussing anything logically.

D

[RiffWraith]

Can someone have a look at something? I just posted this on the VSL forum, but if someone here wants to double-check, that would be great.

When receivng commands from Cubase on the master, the Kontakt volume fader is slightly off when runnning inside VE Pro.


Sequencer (local) Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 12 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader 0.0
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 12 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -0.3
Sequencer Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.0
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.4
Sequencer Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 64 = Kontakt fader -11.8
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 64 = Kontakt fader -12.2



Anyone else seeing this volume difference? Appears to be VE Pro, as FX-Teleport gives the same numbers as locally loaded K3.

Thread:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/22997/156050.aspx#156050

Cheers.

[Animus]

Wouldn't surprise me. kontakt midi to volume has always been quirky. I just always automate the audio outputs in Cubendo.

[Bman]

Sorry Jeff, just tested for you but mine match perfectly. Here are my numbers

Sequencer (local) Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 12 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader 0.0
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 12 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader 0.0
Sequencer Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.0
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.0
Sequencer Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 0 db: Cubase fader 64 = Kontakt fader -12.0
VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 0 db: Cubase fader 64 = Kontakt fader -12.0

My controller is a Remote Zero SL

Brett

[RiffWraith]

Ok, what happens if you take the controller out of the equation?

[Bman]

Can't. I'm using the midi interface in the controller (my M-audio 2x4 became obselete when I shifted to a 64bit OS - in typical M-audio form driver dev stopped once again for their midi interface line)

[RiffWraith]

Hmmm - ok, can someone else please check this?

[paulwr]

Mine all match from Kontakt in sequencer, to Kontakt 3.5 in slave, to VE Pro Kontakt in slave.

Example:

Sequencer Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.0

VE Pro Kontakt: Instr options > controller > MIDI controller > 6 db: Cubase fader 80 = Kontakt fader -6.0

when set to 0DB, Cubase fader 80 I'm at -12db all around.

Do you actually run your setting in Kontakt above 0db? Seems like you'd be risking getting in the red very quickly.

Odd quirk you have there, but certainly not a problem except for maybe pulling up old projects for some reason. Hopefully minor or unnoticed in that case. At least the amount off is less db so you are getting a little overhead rather than pushing too hard.

-Paul

-Paul

[Animus]

Mine matches as well.

[RiffWraith]

ok, then why the hell don't mine match? They match locally, but not in VE Pro. If yours match, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


Do you actually run your setting in Kontakt above 0db? Seems like you'd be risking getting in the red very quickly.


I am usually pulling down faders as I compose (from 80), rather than raise, so tho the Kontakt fader starts out at 0, it usually winds up going down a few db. Besides, there is a decent amount of hr with most of the samples.

Even tho it's no biggie, I still am dying to know what the hell is going on witht he faders.

Cheers.

[zvenx]

By the way,not sure if it is my system a bug in Nuendo or that is how VST3 vsti's behave.
But if I in Nuendo's plug in window disable VEPro the 2.4 version from showing in my vsti list, and then I restart N4, the vst3 version doesnt' show up either...only shows up on successive restarts of Nuendo 4 if both the 2.4 and 3 vst version of VE Pro is enabled in the plug in window of Nuendo.
thanks
rsp

[TAFKAT]

FWIW,

I had a call from a good client who is like many here juggling with trying to find the best method for him to circumnavigate the memory limits using larger VSTi's.

His system - Dual Xeon Harpertown, XPx64, 8GB , C5 32, system is rocking but hitting memory walls so we have tried in the last few months in between his very limited down time, Jbridge and VEP 3. I will stipulate the client doesn't have a lot of time to juggle these options , so getting increasingly frustrated and needing a quick option to try , I suggested an old trick that I think LEX had told me a while ago with FXT , which is run both Server and Host on the same system.

Bingo, client calls me back a 1/2 hour later reporting that it had worked extremely well for him , and he would call me at the end of the day with a verdict after pushing the system thru the rigours of the day. The call at the end of the day was from an ecstatic end user who had being stumbling and fumbling around for months to try and find a workable solution for his workflow, and it was staring both of us in the face , FXT and Server /Slave on same system.

Anyone else here had experience with doing that, and what are the Pro's / Cons.

Sorry if this has been already covered on this thread , I am more skimming than following in finite detail.

:009:

[The Guru]

The FXT thing has been reported at cubase.net a while ago, IIRC. There was quite a long thread, if memory serves. A search may yield results. I think it was in the C5 forum but that's iffy.

[Daryl]

By the way,not sure if it is my system a bug in Nuendo or that is how VST3 vsti's behave.
But if I in Nuendo's plug in window disable VEPro the 2.4 version from showing in my vsti list, and then I restart N4, the vst3 version doesnt' show up either...only shows up on successive restarts of Nuendo 4 if both the 2.4 and 3 vst version of VE Pro is enabled in the plug in window of Nuendo.
thanks
rsp
It may be something to do with the ID number.

D

[paulwr]

FWIW,

I had a call from a good client who is like many here juggling with trying to find the best method for him to circumnavigate the memory limits using larger VSTi's.

His system - Dual Xeon Harpertown, XPx64, 8GB , C5 32, system is rocking but hitting memory walls so we have tried in the last few months in between his very limited down time, Jbridge and VEP 3. I will stipulate the client doesn't have a lot of time to juggle these options , so getting increasingly frustrated and needing a quick option to try , I suggested an old trick that I think LEX had told me a while ago with FXT , which is run both Server and Host on the same system.

Bingo, client calls me back a 1/2 hour later reporting that it had worked extremely well for him , and he would call me at the end of the day with a verdict after pushing the system thru the rigours of the day. The call at the end of the day was from an ecstatic end user who had being stumbling and fumbling around for months to try and find a workable solution for his workflow, and it was staring both of us in the face , FXT and Server /Slave on same system.

Anyone else here had experience with doing that, and what are the Pro's / Cons.

Sorry if this has been already covered on this thread , I am more skimming than following in finite detail.

:009:

Both jBridge and VE Pro running on the DAW in both server/slave works as well, but I thought with better latency figures. Wonder what he was banging against. Just ask Daryl how well VE Pro runs on the same machine. He's got 24GB of loaded samples.

-Paul

[Jwilson]

sorry if this has been covered before but, does anyone know if its possible to get the Vienna GUI window to "always stay on top"?

I'm just using it on the host at the moment and its driving me crazy when I want to edit an instrument while's t keeping control of the sequencer.

[TAFKAT]

Hey Paul,

I'll get the client to log in and give the fine detail.

RE Daryls config, well he was using that much RAM with just the regular VE , and I doubt there is any issue with using native VSL , the issues being encountered are with the 3rd party plugs/VI's.

[Animus]

FWIW,

d find a workable solution for his workflow, and it was staring both of us in the face , FXT and Server /Slave on same system.

Anyone else here had experience with doing that, and what are the Pro's / Cons.

Sorry if this has been already covered on this thread , I am more skimming than following in finite detail.

:009:

I was only doing that back in 2004. Get with the times! :D

[TAFKAT]

I was only doing that back in 2004. Get with the times! :D

And....,

I asked what the Pros and Cons were, I am not here claiming its a revelation !

[paulwr]

Hey Paul,

I'll get the client to log in and give the fine detail.

RE Daryls config, well he was using that much RAM with just the regular VE , and I doubt there is any issue with using native VSL , the issues being encountered are with the 3rd party plugs/VI's.

Yes, the plugs you want to use still matter a lot. I was experimenting using Kontakt 3.5 on a slave, and just smooth as silk. I couldn't have hoped for more. I had about 390 instruments loaded into banks, and the latency just didn't bother me. Feels the same as direct out of Kontakt and through a 9652 card. Really, I don't see how it is possible it is working that well.

-Paul

[Daryl]

sorry if this has been covered before but, does anyone know if its possible to get the Vienna GUI window to "always stay on top"?

I'm just using it on the host at the moment and its driving me crazy when I want to edit an instrument while's t keeping control of the sequencer.
Unfortunately that's the price you pay for being able to use a gazillion GB of samples within a 32bit host.

Maybe time for a second monitor?

D

[Daryl]

RE Daryls config, well he was using that much RAM with just the regular VE , and I doubt there is any issue with using native VSL , the issues being encountered are with the 3rd party plugs/VI's.
This is true. I couldn't give a rat's arse about 3rd party hosting, 5000 MIDI track templates, millions of slave PCs, program changes or Logic users. :wink:

However, the preserve feature alone is worth a pretty penny. I always had my own workaround that cut loading times, when changing projects, to around 3-4 minutes, rather than half an hour, but now it is just as quick as opening a project with no plugs; around 15 seconds. About the same time it takes to save. :rotfl:

The only sang (and this only affects Nuendo users, AFAIK) is that there is a lovely bug in the eLicencer system that means if you close and then open Nuendo (not just the project) you get a crash. This has been there for many, many years, and Syncrosoft never bothered to fix it, so I doubt the Steinberg will either. It doesn't seem to affect Cubase 5 though.

D

[Jwilson]

Unfortunately that's the price you pay for being able to use a gazillion GB of samples within a 32bit host.

Maybe time for a second monitor?

D

Time for a fourth actually, :icon_rolleyes:.

Even though monitors are the greatest thing to buy, I think I might look into the 3rd party apps that allow you to add this feature to any Window. Loads of them if you google "windows always on top".

[Animus]

Deadline for introductory price is tonight fellas! Just bought mine.

[Livewire]

Daryl, since you are running Vienna Ensemble Pro on a XP64 system I was wondering if you were getting the same problems I have.

I have been running Vienna Special Edition and Special Edition Plus with Vienna Instruments 2.0-3452 and Vienna Ensemble 2.0-3452 in Nuendo 4 and Cubase 5 on my XP64 system without any problems for a while now. Very stable and a breeze to use.

I just purchased Ensemble Pro with the Epic Orchestra bonus. I have installed the latest Vienna Instruments 2.0-4132 and Ensemble Pro 4.0.4416. When it gets to the end of each installation a message comes up that states 'Administrator account is required to run Directory Manager'. This is odd as there is only one account on my system which is Administrator. I get the same message every time I try to open the Directory Manager for either program and can therefore not access it. I can run the library installer and install Epic Orchestra, however it does not show up in either program. I can access Directory Manager via the Options menu in Ensemble Pro. When I select the Epic Orchestra folder it asks me to restart the program for the changes to take effect. When I do this the Epic Orchestra folder disappears.
I have tried installing Epic Orchestra with the older Vienna Instruments 2.0-3452 but it does not show up.

I have replicated the exact same installation procedure on my XP32 partition and everything works perfectly. Epic Orchestra appears automatically and all the Directory Managers function correctly.

Note that on my XP64 partition I can successfully run the older Vienna Special Edition and Special Edition Plus instruments in both the latest Vienna Instruments 2.0-4132 and Ensemble Pro 4.0.4416. I have also run both a 32bit and 64bit version of Ensemble pro side by side in Nuendo 4 and Cubase 5 loaded up with 3rd party vsti's without any problems.

I have contacted VSL support about this and they got back to me straight away. They stated that "VE PRO does not support XP64, and it looks like this might be a XP64 specific problem." They advised me to switch to Vista64 or Windows 7.

So anyway, really the only problem I have is that I cannot use Epic Orchestra on XP64. The other issue I can foresee is that all the newer Vienna libraries are going to have to same problem. This makes me very vary of purchasing any more libraries unless I can solve this problem. I cannot see myself going through the pain of changing operating systems in the foreseeable future.

As another XP64 user have you had these same issues?

Thanks

Erin

[Daryl]

As another XP64 user have you had these same issues?

Thanks

Erin
Nope, I've had no issues at all. I've been running it in XP64 since day one without any problems or crashes, other than the Syncrosoft bug (which I'm very careful not to invoke....!). However, I don't have Epic Orchestra, becuase I already have all those samples.

I don't remember seeing any questions about this on the forum. It might be worth posting there so that we can work though it in detail. I'm sure that there is a solution, and it could be something very simple.

D

[Livewire]

Thanks for the reply, thats good to know. I'll get onto the VSL forum and see if I can find a solution.

Erin

[Animus]

How does one get this Epic Orchestra? I have the license that came with VE Pro but I see no where to download it or anything.

[Daryl]

How does one get this Epic Orchestra? I have the license that came with VE Pro but I see no where to download it or anything.

Have you checked your User Area?

D

[Animus]

Have you checked your User Area?

D


Yeah, several times but didn't see anything. i will check it again. Their site is very confusing and not that great imo.

[Daryl]

Yeah, several times but didn't see anything. i will check it again. Their site is very confusing and not that great imo.
Try:

User Area
Download Instruments
Epic Orchestra

D

[Animus]

thanks Daryl. Found it. I was confused since all saw all the products listed and was expecting just the one I owned to be.


New version of VE Pro is out btw. It cause crashes when after the sounds are loading or either the host or server. Several others over at their forums have reported the same thing.

You know I think I will just stick with fxteleport for the time being. I just built a a i7 system and and an getting incredible low latency on the thing. 128 buffer with no drop outs. I could probably even go lower if I tried. And it is less cpu intensive than VE Pro.

[paulwr]

thanks Daryl. Found it. I was confused since all saw all the products listed and was expecting just the one I owned to be.


New version of VE Pro is out btw. It cause crashes when after the sounds are loading or either the host or server. Several others over at their forums have reported the same thing.

You know I think I will just stick with fxteleport for the time being. I just built a a i7 system and and an getting incredible low latency on the thing. 128 buffer with no drop outs. I could probably even go lower if I tried. And it is less cpu intensive than VE Pro.

I have the latest version where they fixed the save times. V4 build 4536.
No problems at all on the slave (W7 Ultra) or the DAW (XP 64) On the DAW I only receive, I don't run standalone at the moment. I may be expanding with it in a few weeks. Actually have to make music here, too!

VE Pro doesn't seem to use much at all in the way of system resources as far as I can tell.

-Paul

[Animus]

I have the latest version where they fixed the save times. V4 build 4536.
No problems at all on the slave (W7 Ultra) or the DAW (XP 64) On the DAW I only receive, I don't run standalone at the moment. I may be expanding with it in a few weeks. Actually have to make music here, too!

VE Pro doesn't seem to use much at all in the way of system resources as far as I can tell.

-Paul


Are you loading songs created with the first version of VE Pro and are you preserving instances? It only apparently happens when you load sounds everytime you load a project.

[paulwr]

Animus, I preserve and save everything. Even individual Konakt banks get saved, Then every Kontakt multis get saved. I save each perserved instance of VE Pro separately, and I save the whole ve pro server (forgot the format they call it; I'm at my office computer now) that captures everything on the slave for me.

Then, on the DAW I run the composing session with each of seven VE Pro instances in the cubase vst instrument rack in 'detatched' mode so saving is instant instead of 10-15 seconds. But at the end of the session, I go ahead and 'attach' each ve pro instance and allow a full save for the hell of it. Guess I like to save.

On opening a session, I start up the ve pro slave and load the whole template, which for me is static. I don't change it session to session (except to refine the template a bit here and there). Then I open the cubase session and everything is connected and I can play right off the bat. But I do take the time, then, the 'detatch' all the ve pro instances so saving remains fast.

No problems, no gliches. I do love this system and plan on expanding it to other slaves as time goes on.

I did open a saved project from the first ve pro version, and don't remember there being a problem.

Next is to try some of the tricks guys have used to get Play to work. I would like ve pro to handle the Play libraries outside of Cubase. I run one instance of stand alone now, of Play. I need many more to be where I want. If I can sidestep the Bidule solution, I will.

-Paul

[Bman]

Encouraging to see this thread (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/25280.aspx) at VSL. It seems that VE Pro and EW PLAY may end up being friends in the end...

Brett

[Animus]

That's good news. Maybe I will think about owning a EW product.

[Bman]

That's good news. Maybe I will think about owning a EW product.

Yeah. Baby steps are the way to go...

I suspect it won't be until Play Pro arrives that I'll get the basic functionality I already have with Kontakt