Maximising 6GB in XP?

[Captain Caveman]

Ok, I have just upgraded from 2GB to 6GB on XP Pro on my Asus P5W Dh Dlx. I have added a couple of lines in the boot.ini to boot with the standard /3GB switch with /USERVA and another one to boot with the more rebellious /PAE switch.

6GB is recognised both in the BIOS and in XP System Information but even on the /3GB and /PAE boots, in Task Manager only 2GB physical memory is reported. When /3GB works does TM report it or is it not working on my system? I tried loading up more VSTis in a project that was pushing the limits and it did let me, but it just sounded from the noise of the HDD that the swap file was getting overused rather than the memory.

I thought that even without the /3GB switch, 4GB of physical memory would give 2GB for apps and 2GB for system, but the system is still stealing the standard amount of memory with the extra RAM installed. Am I wrong on this one?

Also, seeing as there is an extra 2GB above the 4GB limit..... is this invisible to XP (even with /PAE) or is there a way of putting the swap file into this area or making some other use of this space? I know that I could get 4GB on Vista 64 running 32bit apps, but I'd prefer to not spend any cash.

What's the advice/information of the board on this issue?

Cheers

Paul

[paulwr]

You'll never get the full amount of RAM you expect. I'm upgrading two slaves right now running just Kontakt2.1.1.001 and have 4GB RAM..... system says 3.66GB will be available, and actually Kontakt craps out whenever I try to go above 1.5GB loaded samples which is 2.28GB total ram usage per the Windows task manager.

Now, if you go with Windows XP 64bit, you can easily load almost 3GB of samples, so I'm going to do that unless I get the Windows7 64bit beta working well. I'd like to do that and then just purchase Windows7 if it winds up being as efficient as Windows XP 64bit

The extra 2 GB ram beyond 4GB will probably do you no good at all with Kontakt 32 bit version. Also, you MUST make Kontakt large address aware, which requires the laatido hack. Little piece of free software that can adjust your programs that aren't large address aware so that they are.
http://www.musikbanken.se/TechLaaTiDo.aspx

-Paul

[Captain Caveman]

Thanks for the quick replies gents. :)

Here is the info you requested Nate,


OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name STUDIO1
System Manufacturer ASUSTEK COMPUTER INC
System Model P5W DH Deluxe
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 15 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3001 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 15 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3001 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 1407, 26/09/2006
SMBIOS Version 2.4
Windows Directory C:\WINDOWS
System Directory C:\WINDOWS\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)"
User Name STUDIO1\Studio
Time Zone GMT Standard Time
Total Physical Memory 6,144.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 1.83 GB
Total Virtual Memory 2.83 GB
Available Virtual Memory 2.79 GB
Page File Space 3.91 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys


[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="XP Pro" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="XP Pro 3GB" /fastdetect /3GB /USERVA=2900
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="XP Pro PAE" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn /PAE

I can't personally see anything wrong with it, but if TM says 2096172 is the physical memory then something must be wrong somewhere.

Paul, I have been thinking about a 64 bit OS but I don't want to spend any money at this time on it. I'd be happy getting 2.5GB but the main question is whether TM should report 3GB (or 2900 if USERVA is used) or if it reports 2GB even when /3GB is working (and whether the extra 2GB can even be used in any capacity).

Also, I've re-installed stuff on this machine (in its various incarnations) too many times so want to leave that side of things alone for a while. :)

Thanks again,

Paul

[Captain Caveman]

What size are the RAM sticks? Is it Dual Channel?

Other than the space in WINDOW S in the default entry and /NoExecute=OptIn missing in the second entry it's basically OK.

If possible, I'd try just installing 4 Gigs and see what happens. If you have 2G sticks I don't know if your MB supports that.

As stated, the most you'll see is 4G's of virtual address space minus whatever the hardware installed on your system uses up.

The weird thing is that I am ticking all the boxes.... dual channel, doesn't work with just 4GB, BIOS/motherboard recognises it, Windows recognises it (Sys Info at least) but Task Manager shows 2GB available and around 1.8GB available just after booting.

If TM is wrong then everything is OK, does TM report 3GB of physical memory on other machines?

btw, the gap in WINDOW S was a mistake, I checked the boot.ini and there is no gap.

Cheers.

[Captain Caveman]

What size are the RAM sticks? If it's dual channel, it has to be installed in matched pairs. Some MB's don't like different sizes.

I have 3G's installed and msinfo32 reports 3G, so does TM.

Yup, they're matched pairs in the same coloured slots as per the P5W manual. 2x2GB and 2x1GB, but same issue with just 2X2GB installed in the slots for the first channel that the 2x1GB have been happily working in for a couple of years.

Thanks for the info re TM, it's weird though that on my system msinfo32 reports 6.1GB of physical memory, but only 1.83GB of available even with the /3GB switch. The 1.83 doesn't change with only 4GB installed.

I'll have another look at it tomorrow, I'm just bamboozled cause it looks like there is nothing wrong.

[Captain Caveman]

I still have 4GB after taking the 2x1GB out and the BIOS is seeing 4GB though. I'd even be happy with 2GB for apps, 2GB for system and leaving the other 2GB till I get an x64 OS, but XP still seems to be loading on the 1st 2GB seeing as available memory is under 2GB.

Thanks for the help anyway, its much appreciated. I'll have another look tomorrow.

:willy_nilly:

[OpenMind]

Most modern PCs are 64bit systems.
That's why the BIOS will report your amount of RAM correctly as long as it doesn't exceed about 16 bilion GB (theoreticly)... because that's what 64 bit systems can handle; 2 ^ 64
Most motherboards will handle some amount between 16 and 128GB nowadays.

Windows XP however, is a 32 bits OS...
It can handle max. 2 ^ 32 = about 4 bilion bytes = 4GB
Keep in mind that your hardware will also take up some address space... 0.5 GB for VGA for example... At the end you'll have about 3GB available to run software and data.

XP64 will give you more than 4GB available, but then you'll still be limited by 32 bit applications and plug-ins.

[TAFKAT]

There is still something screwy there..

Firstly no point having 6GB installed with XP32, as it will not address the last 2GB in any way, so better off just having the 2 x 2GB sticks.

Now heres where it gets a bit screwy..

Even with your hardware taking the required address space, you should be seeing around 3GB , reported in TM as the total Physical memory , if you aren't, then something isn't right.

There are numerous other users here with P5W-DH using 4GB in XP and seeing the 3GB , Animus and KDM being 2 that come to mind.

However this is not the first time I have seen the physical memory tapping out at 2GB on ASUS i975 boards, as I have the same anomaly on one of my own studio systems, however the board is actually the P5WGD2-WS Pro Workstation board and I haven't been able to get a straight answer from ASUS in to why the board refuses to allow extended memory addressing above 2GB under XP. Under XP x64 its fine , but under XP32 I have the same issue with it refusing to recognise one drop over 2GB.

It is something to do with a memory hole within the BIOS, however , there is no option in the BIOS to allow addressing it.

I would ask the other guys here what BIOS rev they are running on their P5W-DH boards, that may resolve it for you

:009:

[psvennevig]

Posted earlier:

WinXP since SP2 have always PAE enabled as long as the CPU is hardware "no execution" aware.
This was one of the culprits with SP2.
MS removed the option to actually support more RAM with the /PAE option.

So whatever you do, with post SP2 /PAE won't do a thing.

MS also rendered more than 4GB support in WinXP useless since SP2 since they made the kernel so it would not have problems with badly written drivers.
They at the same time did NOT allow this with Win2003 server.
That's why a lot of cheap raid cards do not have win 2003 drivers.

There's simply no way around x64 bit systems if you want more
than 3,6GB (at the best) of RAM available to the whole system.

Running Cubendo 32 bit on a x64 bit system gives you 4GB of RAM for that app. alone.
If you run a sampler etc. as Rewire it gives you 4GB max for that as well.

The future is 64 bit systems. We just have to get the plugin devs. onboard.

Pål

[TerryG]

The best way to maximize the use of 6GB of memory with XP32 is to build two 3GB machines. :wink:

XP SP3 installs with Physical Address Extension by default.
the "/noexecute=optin" switch essentially identifies that PAE is already in use.
The 4GB on my system has never shown more than 3.25GB.

If your Asus bios has the Advanced / North Bridge Chipset Configuration / Memory Remap Feature, it will read "PCI MMIO Allocation: 4GB To 3328MB" when 4GB is installed. This should only be enabled when you install a 64-bit OS anyway... then you can enable this and see what happens with all 6GB and an OS that can use it.

Here are some links with info, and the whole MS Memory Management database linked in the left window:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb613473(VS.85).aspx

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx

If you have another drive, relocate the pagefile there... that will help computer performance in general.

[Vinark]

I havn´t read every post but to see 2.5 a 3gb you must disable memory remapping. I see 2.7 on my P5WDH with 3gb installed. Memory remapping is not for more ram but for 64bit OS. If you have already done this, sorry ....
Oh and PAE is only in XP (post SP1) for the execute disable bit (memory/virus protection). Real PAE was in XP originally but removed in sp1 cause it caused to many crashes by badly written drivers. Windows server 2003 has real PAE but I never tried that.
It´s a bit like using a VST(i) with the 3gb switch which isn´t written correctly. As long as the vst(I) is in the lower 2gb no issues but after loading lots of samples and then reloading the project this plugin can be assigned above the 2gb limit and voilà a crash. So all plugins you use when using the 3GB switch must be compatible which, is a bitch to find out. 2gb of ram and the switch have one advantage, you can use the full 2gb instead of just~1.6gb in cubendo. Kontakt3 has no issues with 3gb and will reload fine, but any other plugin can break it which is a real pain except when you use FXT with 3gb and only kontakt on the slave.
OK, Bye, maybe to much information, but I really spend some time on this. But gave up on trying to find out which plugins are reliable with the 3gb switch.
Vincent

[TAFKAT]

I havn´t read every post but to see 2.5 a 3gb you must disable memory remapping. I see 2.7 on my P5WDH with 3gb installed. Memory remapping is not for more ram but for 64bit OS. If you have already done this, sorry ....

Hey V,

Out of interest, where exactly is the memory remapping setting in the P5W-DH BIOS ?

That is the missing piece of the puzzle for me as well, but I can't for the life of me find the setting in the BIOS for my board.

Its supposed to list the 32 Bit O.S/ 64 Bit O.S option in the advanced / chipset / northbridge configuration settings, but the northbridge options are not available on my board, unless I am going blind.

Also spotted this thread , which seems to be the identical problem, and the memory remapping option is mentioned, Here (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/250120-30-deluxe-2403-bios-inside-windows), notice the guy has memory remapping activated since the BIOS reflash, and probably hasn't realised that it was off by default on the earlier BIOS.

[Captain Caveman]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

It turns out that the version of the BIOS I have doesn't have the memory remap stuff of later versions, I'm on 1407 and the latest is 2801.

I'll post back results when I finally get a bootable CDROM burned cause EZ Flash isn't picking up the BIOS file.

:)

[Chroma ONe]

The /3gb switch determines how many virtual addresses Windows keeps for itself and how many it allocates to to the application out of the total 4GB address space available to each process. The 4GB limitation is a consequence of the 32-bit architecture.

This is not related to the amount of physical memory installed in a particular system. The switch works the same regardless of whether 1GB or 6GB of physical memory is installed.

[TAFKAT]

It's located here.

Memory remap is activated from BIOS/Advanced/Chipset/Northbridge Chipset Configuration

Nate,

Read my post, I already listed that, problem is that option is not available in some BIOS revs.. :icon_no:

Its obviously available on some revs of P5W-DH tho, as some of the guys here have been able to reach the option..

Now I just need to find a BIOS rev for my board.. , what a PITA, but at least all the revs are available on the ASUS site..

Looks like I'll be dancing around some BIOS flashes when I get some time..

Note to Captain C,

Its not always available on the latests BIOS's either, I in fact have the latest BIOS on my P5WGD2-WS Pro board, and the Northbridge listing is not there, I also have the latest BIOS for the previous board P5WD2-Premium running on my office system as I type, and the Northbridge option is also not available.

I can't understand why ASUS would remove the option when it is obviously capable of causing issues for those running more than 2 GB on XP32..

And don't bother trying to get any sense out of their so called support.., I am so glad to be seeing the back of them to be honest..

[Captain Caveman]

Note to Captain C,

Its not always available on the latests BIOS's either, I in fact have the latest BIOS on my P5WGD2-WS Pro board, and the Northbridge listing is not there, I also have the latest BIOS for the previous board P5WD2-Premium running on my office system as I type, and the Northbridge option is also not available.

I can't understand why ASUS would remove the option when it is obviously capable of causing issues for those running more than 2 GB on XP32..

And don't bother trying to get any sense out of their so called support.., I am so glad to be seeing the back of them to be honest..

Cheers Vin, it looks like I'm getting closer to a solution, to be safe with over BIOS flashing, I have PM'd kdm and Animus to see what their BIOS revs are on their boards as you suggested.

To be honest though I am having a bit of a 'mare getting this BIOS flashed anyway. EZ Flash2 doesn't see any of the hard drives (probably because they are NTFS) or the BIOS file on any CD I burn.

Here comes the stupid question.....

I downloaded the trial version of Nero to burn a bootable ISO because on my Vista Home Premium laptop the bootable checkbox is blanked out and on the DAW it doesn't recognise new CDs to format for some reason.

So I downloaded an MS-DOS ISO and burned it, but I can't put the flash utility or BIOS onto it. What am I doing wrong and what's the best (free) way of getting a bootable CD-ROM with the right files on it?

Also, and sorry to milk the udders of advice, but TerryG mentions putting the swap file on another hard drive. I have a system drive, an audio and 2 sample drives - both used for DFD. What is the best drive to relocate the swap file to?

Cheers for any help.

[TerryG]

I have to say I don't comprehend what the difficulty or reservation could be in flashing the Bios.
The ASUS Flash Utility does it in 10 seconds, while in your OS, with either a realtime download or an existing file you've saved in a folder. There's complete safety/restore capability if you have any issues whatsoever. It confirms itself as part of the installation process. It really couldn't be easier.

I've updated my Bios with 5 revisions since building my latest box 6 months ago.
Each one has improved some functions and/or memory brand compatibility.

[TAFKAT]

Oh I can understand the reservation..

I have never flashed the ASUS BIOS from the O.S based utility.., always using the BIOS based flashing utility and either a floppy/usb floppy/flash drive, and have had minimal failed flashes using that method over many years.

I have never loaded the ASUS O.S based utility.

Personally, and from numerous techs I have spoken to over the years I wouldn't trust or recommend the ASUS O.S based utility , and for those that have ever had a BIOS flash fail using it, they know exactly what I am talking about. The safety / restore is of no value , simply because if you screw the BIOS flash, and reboot , there is no way of even accessing the O.S, let alone the utility.

In my experience, recovering from a failed BIOS flash is not as simple as flashing the BIOS again, it can render the motherboard dead as a door nail, and the BIOS chip needs to flashed using a ROM burner to get it back up.

[Vinark]

Hey V,

Out of interest, where exactly is the memory remapping setting in the P5W-DH BIOS ?

That is the missing piece of the puzzle for me as well, but I can't for the life of me find the setting in the BIOS for my board.

Its supposed to list the 32 Bit O.S/ 64 Bit O.S option in the advanced / chipset / northbridge configuration settings, but the northbridge options are not available on my board, unless I am going blind.

Also spotted this thread , which seems to be the identical problem, and the memory remapping option is mentioned, Here (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/250120-30-deluxe-2403-bios-inside-windows), notice the guy has memory remapping activated since the BIOS reflash, and probably hasn't realised that it was off by default on the earlier BIOS.

First I run bios 2504 which to my knowledge is the most stable version for all settings as they didn´t try to include the 45nm cpu´s yet, which screwed up all kind of settings.
The setting here is in advanced/chipset (Not northbridge ) and is called memory remapping.....
Good luck
oh and 2504 is available here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110193&highlight=p5w).

[TAFKAT]

Cool..,

I just wish that option was available to me on the WS Pro board.

I need to dig back thu some previous BIOS revs..

[Captain Caveman]

Success with rev 2504 - thanks for the tip Vinark. :)

3GB physical memory reported and I was able to load BFD2 with a kit and K3 with a few instruments in a project that was previously running out of memory so much that I couldn't load K3 without it saying the audio engine would be disabled.

There's life in the ol' dog yet.

Nice one guys.... much, much appreciated.

:)

[dada]

Hi Captain,
in case You run into probs with the 3 gb switch ...
There's the other solution, to use FX-Teleport as Host and Server on the same machine.
( You may do a search for "teleport" and "dada" on C.Net, for more details )

bye, Jan

[Vinark]

Hi Captain,
in case You run into probs with the 3 gb switch ...
There's the other solution, to use FX-Teleport as Host and Server on the same machine.
( You may do a search for "teleport" and "dada" on C.Net, for more details )

bye, Jan
This is fantastic Jan (and easy, since I already had FXT installed, only not as a local slave yet).
I had issues with BFD2 in certain projects where it was complaining about not enough ram (while there was still some available) when trying to load more kit pieces. Loaded it of in a local slave and can now load to the brink and that without the 3gb switch (which always caused some issues). So now I don´t need to start the real slave anymore (for now), since these quads are really kicking it.
Thanks!!:emote_beerchug:
Vincent

[dada]

:icon_cool:
You're welcome !

When I started testing the 3gb switch, I was soon starting to patch each and every plugin to be LAA ...
But realizing, I also had to do this with most apps I use, I finally gave up.

The FXT solution has some drawbacks like 'losing window focus',
but is much more reliable.

Bye, Jan

[soundcheckers]

CC,

I have the same mobo and 4G Ram and latest Bios and XP32 wouldn't see the extra ram until I pulled my 3X UAD-1 out of the PCI slots. I suspect that these cards were the culprits. Glad you were able to sort it out...

[norbury brook]

I've just swapped my WS Pro board for a gigabyte P35 board and I've now got 3 gigs out of my 4 now available,and thats with 1X UAD-2, 1x UAD-1, SSL Dunede PCIe and POCO mk-11 installed.With the old MOBO just adding 1 UAD card meant my memory dropped to 2 gigs regardless of everything I tried.


marcus

[TAFKAT]

Hmmm,

I do have a UAD1 installed on that rig, I'll report back after I pull it for a look see.

[TAFKAT]

Haven't had a chance to check out the UAD1 yet..

But I did find a good explanation re the memory addressing hurdles we navigate in XP32, that I will share with the members here..


Microsoft Windows XP Professional, designed as a 32-bit OS, supports an address range of up to 4 GB for virtual memory addresses and up to 4 GB for physical memory addresses. Because the physical memory addresses are sub-divided to manage both the computer’s PCI memory address range (also known as MMIO) and RAM, the amount of available RAM is always less than 4 GB.

The memory addresses starting down from 4 GB are used for things like the BIOS, IO cards, networking, PCI hubs, bus bridges, PCI-Express, and video/graphics cards. The BIOS takes up about 512 KB starting from the very top address.

Then each of the other items mentioned are allocated address ranges below the BIOS range. The largest block of addresses is allocated for today’s high performance graphics cards which need addresses for at least the amount of memory on the graphics card.

The net result is that a high performance x86-based computer may allocate 512 MB to more than 1 GB for the PCI memory address range before any RAM (physical user memory) addresses are allocated. RAM starts from address 0. The BIOS allocates RAM from 0 up to the bottom of the PCI memory addresses mentioned above, typically limiting available RAM to between 3 GB and 3.4 GB.

[TAFKAT]

I've just swapped my WS Pro board for a gigabyte P35 board and I've now got 3 gigs out of my 4 now available,and thats with 1X UAD-2, 1x UAD-1, SSL Dunede PCIe and POCO mk-11 installed.With the old MOBO just adding 1 UAD card meant my memory dropped to 2 gigs regardless of everything I tried.


marcus

Hey Marcus,

Well I'll be damned, I tried chasing this thing down for months , and all along it was the bloody UAD1 , well the UAD1 in combination with whatever memory mapping issue this board has..

I was looking for a reason to retire the UAD1 once and for all..

Thanks Mate.. :D

[Jcschild]

DOH! see here

http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10984&p=88583#p88581

[TAFKAT]

Hey Scott,

Dohhh What.. ? :eusa_think:

I have always known UAD1's are a bitch in regards to resource allocation.., and I also understand how BIOS reserves lower memory address space for hardware, what is not clear is how the UAD1 locks access to anything above 2GB as soon as its installed on this board..

The whole issue with Nvidia/UAD1 is interesting as I do have an Nvidia card, except that I have used the same line of cards and the specific driver for 100's of systems, many with UAD1 and its never been an issue, and I have not experienced the issue with non booting, etc.

To me, in short, I love the sound of the UAD1 plugins but hate the concept of any DSP card , the UAD1 hardware is an archaic POS , and the UAD2 is floating somewhere just a little closer to the surface. I also believe the issues are getting decidedly worse with V5 and above.

I know, we are about to get a whole stack of UADnoids screaming thats its working fine here, and I have no doubt , but I have had enough experience with perfectly working systems with multiple UAD1's to know just how easy it is to trip if the lower memory is reallocated in any way , there is a long detailed account from TerryG posted on this forum as well.

And of course UAD as good as they are in a lot of respects, have remained deathly quiet on this issue as well as the ASIO munching.., its interesting to say the least.