Key Editor problem and "feature" request

[kdm]

I'll put this here in case others have a workaround, then I'll post it as a formal request.

I work a good bit with the Key Editor open - it's easier to move between parts editing since the KE follows the selected track/event. However, KE auto-enables record for the part selected (even with Solo Record in Midi Editor enabled). This means that, for example, if I want to read a part already recorded while adding another part, I have to manually turn record off for any track that has an event or events visible in the KE. Even with "Record Enable on Selected Tracks" turned off, the KE still record enables the track for the currently active events.

The request:
1 - allow multiple key editor windows to be opened along with (2), and
2 - allow any KE window to be locked to a track without record enabled, and any other(s) to be linked or locked.

This would allow recording of a different track from the one visible in the KE without chasing the record enable button (stopping record also shows the recorded track's event, so in order to go back to the reference event, you have to repeat the procedure of reselecting, turning off record on that track, etc - even then, play often re-enables record for the KE event's track, if it is by chance in focus instead of the Project window.

[messianic]

+1

I find it annoying too that Record is enabled for midi tracks, even if "Not Connected" is selected.

I also find it strange not so much not being able to have multiple key editors open although it certainly would help sometimes when ordering things because there is no underlying way to organise midi note events and by this I mean Folder Tracks when all folders do is work in Arrange.

About Record Enable, I personally would like to see it switched off, especially if there are no midi inputs enabled.

The behaviour you specifiy may have something to do with "Record on Select" this is another thing which might be ok as a feature but probably should not be switched on by default at least in my view.

Put a link to this post in the Thinktank maybe it will be noticed. For a long time I have felt the current way is not really ideal.

[Animus]

If I remember right Cubase VST had multiple key edit windows. And also multiple arrange/projects windows. It was pretty cool.

[Thonex]

well... personally I like that I can record in any midi part even if that track is not selected... so I'd say make it a preference as opposed to removing the way it behaves... because having to enable record on every midi part I open (if I want to record something) would be a PITA.

T

[messianic]

well... personally I like that I can record in any midi part even if that track is not selected... so I'd say make it a preference as opposed to removing the way it behaves... because having to enable record on every midi part I open (if I want to record something) would be a PITA.

T

I guess this is the whole point there is a preference but it's whether you want it on or off by default. I suppose it's more to do with what the assumed purpose is, audio or midi.

I think the way to do it would be to have it that "Not Connected" means no record enable. That makes sense since no MIDI input is selected.

I think this is only part of what the OP said, as they were also talking about the Key Editor and my solution there would be to firstly fix the container issue, Folder Tracks so that when used they employ inheritance principles commonly used in file formats such as XML.

Maybe the last paragraph might sound a little OT but doesn't Cubase and Nuendo both support archives (which is in a kind of XML)?

As Animus said there was a time when multiple key edit windows could be open at the same time but I think those days are gone now so the only solution as I see it is to give meaning to the use of Folders.

[kdm]

well... personally I like that I can record in any midi part even if that track is not selected... so I'd say make it a preference as opposed to removing the way it behaves... because having to enable record on every midi part I open (if I want to record something) would be a PITA.

T

That's pretty much how I think it was designed to work, and for recording parts with it open, it's as it should be. Be all means there should be a pref, because there are times I want to work just as you are describing here.

For viewing/editing it seems like it's just not designed for anything but the current selected part. Even a pref to turn off record enable won't solve it completely - for what I want to do, there would also have to be an option to lock the KE view to a track/part, which is where multiple KE windows would be of benefit - record into one, monitor the other.

[Captain Caveman]

The request:
1 - allow multiple key editor windows to be opened

The good news is that multiple key editor windows can indeed be opened. The logic that can get in the way is that (usually*) a MIDI part can only be in one key editor at the same time (per Workspace, which opens up some possibilities).



2 - allow any KE window to be locked to a track without record enabled.

Record is only enabled when a key editor is in focus, so if you have two opened you can mess around in one and the other won't be record enabled. You can also have one key editor opened and do inline editing on another MIDI track and it won't have focus so won't record.

Ticks all the boxes methinks.

:)


* I have had 2 MIDI key editors before and moved notes in one that moved in the other, but don't know how/why/wherefor.

[The Guru]

Un-check Link Editors in Prefs to open multiple KE's.

[kdm]

I should amend the request - I did know you could open multiple key editors, but there's very little value there for what I do the way they work now. I would need to "freeze" one to a part and leave the other linked, but still without linking them to record enable. No way to do that currently. Oddly, ProTools 8 seems to do this exactly the way I want.

[The Guru]

What about the In Place Editors?

[Captain Caveman]

Or, if you select all MIDI parts apart from the one you want fixed, you can open an editor for all of them and then a seperate one for the one you want left alone.

Then it's just a double click on the MIDI part to activate the notes from it in the Key Editor.

[Captain Caveman]

.. or double click (or Enter) to open any MIDI part in its own editor and Enter to close it ready for the next one.

[Thonex]

Maybe only the active window should be "record enable-able"

[Captain Caveman]

Maybe only the active window should be "record enable-able"

That's the way it works already, if you open two key editors and click between them you'll see the record enable flicking between the tracks in the project window.

:)

[kdm]

That's the part that annoys me the most - having to activate window focus. I regularly switch between the project window and key editor and having to click the window, then select tools, etc is just not an efficient way to work. I basically want the option to work with the key editor disconnected from record enable completely - linked to a specific track for editing only. Have a key command to switch back to record enable so I could track into that key editor/track at will, but not as the only default.

Check out the ProTools 8 midi video here (http://www.vimeo.com/1932414) . While PT 8 doesn't seem to be in the ballpark of Cubendo for midi yet in other areas, the way the key editor is managed there *seems* to be what I'm looking for. I have no idea if it works in reality, but it looks like the idea is right.

[Thonex]

That's the way it works already, if you open two key editors and click between them you'll see the record enable flicking between the tracks in the project window.

:)


heh... I wouldn't know:) My basic work flow is to work in the project window and hit Alt-E whenever I want to edit a part in the key editor. This way I can also choose multiple parts from multiple tracks and edit all parts in 1 key editor if need be... without losing track of what's going on.

[Captain Caveman]

That's the part that annoys me the most - having to activate window focus. I regularly switch between the project window and key editor and having to click the window, then select tools, etc is just not an efficient way to work.

Nah. ;)

The way it works is that the tool is dependant on what editor the cursor is floating over. The Range Tool can be used in the Project Window, a different tool in one Key Editor and a further different one from that used in 2nd Key Editor - they all remember the last tool used. When you float the mouse over an Editor window the tool changes automatically, when you float back over the Project Window the last tool used is automatically selected there too.

In the Key Editors, with just the Select Tool selected semi-permanently and the Alt key you can Select, Draw and Split and together with the Delete key you can do most things without ever changing tools (assigning a Key Command to the Line Tool is a good idea).

Also, the Record Enable is only active in the track linked the the active part in a Key Editor when the Editor has focus. If you are clicking between the Project Window and a Key Editor then you will notice that the Record Enable for the active part in the Key Editor is removed when you click anywhere in the Project Window.

I had a look at that ProTools MIDI editing and the two things that struck me were....

1. The awful way that set note lengths are adding with a draw/double click. This is the way drawing MIDI notes works in Tracktion and it is awful. Not having a draw n drag option is uber-frustrating.

2. The Track List thing could be handy for drawing in string sections at the same time.

3. The video was full of press this and that key combo to do this and that. I think the current Cubendo system of switching tools when required with a single press of a key is better than the way that works.

Just my $0.00000000000000000002

;)

[Captain Caveman]

heh... I wouldn't know:) My basic work flow is to work in the project window and hit Alt-E whenever I want to edit a part in the key editor. This way I can also choose multiple parts from multiple tracks and edit all parts in 1 key editor if need be... without losing track of what's going on.

I prefer hitting Enter. :)

[kdm]

Nah. ;)

The way it works is that the tool is dependant on what editor the cursor is floating over.

But having to select the window to bring it into focus makes it a two click process. I might have to post a video of how I work to explain this better - you don't seem to work the same way and aren't understanding what I want to do here.




Also, the Record Enable is only active in the track linked the the active part in a Key Editor when the Editor has focus. If you are clicking between the Project Window and a Key Editor then you will notice that the Record Enable for the active part in the Key Editor is removed when you click anywhere in the Project Window.


If that were actually the real case your workaround might be sufficient for now. But, there also seems to be a bug in it as I've had other tracks drop into record enable. Select the project window, leaving the key editor open for a part you want to read/view while recording another track - rec enable the new track, but disable record on the track active in the KE. Hit record on a controller, and the key editor part will drop into rec enable. Sometimes it doesn't even show record enable, but you will end up recording on both the selected track, and the one active in the key editor.



3. The video was full of press this and that key combo to do this and that. I think the current Cubendo system of switching tools when required with a single press of a key is better than the way that works.


The part I am interested in is the fluidity of having the key editor locked to a track without having it auto-enable record for that track/part everytime I hit rec. That worked perfectly in the ProTools 8 video. I already said that PT8 was well behind in other areas, so what you noted is irrelevant to my reason for referring to it. Watch it again for the way key editors are assigned and linked, and locked.

Again, you don't work the same way I do, so you may not understand what I am wanting here. Believe me, I've been trying to find alternate methods that are as fast for me as what I am envisioning here. I basically just work the way you and Thonex do now - just open the KE when I need it and close it after.

Think of having the KE as basically an alternate view of the Project window (or better, a split view within the project window (no, the inline editor is way too small) - such that you have it always in focus with the project window) - you could have it in "edit-only" mode (no record enable active) and select any part to edit on the fly moving back and forth between recording in the Project window - esp. handy if I am, for example, reading a part I just recorded and adding a harmony, counterpoint, doubling, etc. Can't do that with the current design, without clicking 2, 3 or even 4 times to defeat rec enable, also clicking on each window back and forth. Clicking in the workspace to activate focus is another issue. I'm trying to minimize clicks and simply work back and forth, recording/grabbing a part here, moving a note, or changing a velocity/controller there, without having to reselect a part before I went into record, clicking 2 times, etc, etc.

[messianic]

kdm

I tried something.

What I did was I disabled all the preferences for solo on select etc, and then I went and opened a key editor. While leaving it open I went and selected a MIDI track and briefly the rec-enable light flashed.

When I went down to an instrument track it was off but on the next instrument track down it was "left" on.

My view on this and this is only my own personal preference, I think all the inspector windows should be the same since maybe the underlying code for each of these elements is altering the balance of what is supposed to be on and what is meant to be off.

Just an observation.


My regards

[Captain Caveman]

But having to select the window to bring it into focus makes it a two click process. I might have to post a video of how I work to explain this better - you don't seem to work the same way and aren't understanding what I want to do here.

Can you try something to see if Nuendo works differently from Cubase?

Select the Range Tool in the Project Window. Select the Draw tool in the Key Editor. Select a Range in the Project Window and then go over to the KE and draw a note. Select the Select tool in the KE, Select a Range in the PW and go over to the KE and select some notes.

If your system works the way mine does then there is no need to have focus in the KE or PE before working with the tool in hand/mouse. The only time it does is when using 12345 to select the tool. Having the Select tool in KE means that I can select and draw with Alt as the toggle.




If that were actually the real case your workaround might be sufficient for now. But, there also seems to be a bug in it as I've had other tracks drop into record enable. Select the project window, leaving the key editor open for a part you want to read/view while recording another track - rec enable the new track, but disable record on the track active in the KE. Hit record on a controller, and the key editor part will drop into rec enable. Sometimes it doesn't even show record enable, but you will end up recording on both the selected track, and the one active in the key editor.

That's another strange thing. When I click anywhere in the Project Window, the Record Enable for the active track in the Key Editor is unselected the moment I click.

Hmmm.

:confused: