ASIO Meter Spike/VST load issues

[m127]

Check a comparison video (be patient for it to load) I created with the hope of getting listened to by Steinberg in regards to Cubase CPU spikes issue>

It is not only a UAD problem btw



http://m127.com/UAD-2%20and%20Cubase%20issue/Cubase_4.5.2_vs_Reaper_2.5___Performance_2009-01-27_2007.swf





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[Thonex]

Interesting. Thanks for posting this.

I thought Vin did some tests where with hight track counts Reaper did worse than Nuendo.

Vin.... and you chime in on this?


Cheers,

T

[TAFKAT]

Hey M, T,

No all of my Reaper v Cubendo testing showed Reaper having an edge in low latency / multiprocessing performance using high track / plugin counts, but I didn't finalise a VSTi test as yet.

Its no surprise that Reaper is performing better with VST 2.x Plugins , as it has been speculated that VST 2.x is no longer native in seq4, that all VST 2.x plugs actually require to run some added arbitration thru a VST 2.x to VST 3 bridge/wrapper of some sort. We have discussed this on another thread here already, and its obvious the NI plugs are definately susceptible. I have heard of otehr NI plugs behaving in like manner, Guitar rig being another one..

What we need to be clear on is that the Cubendo meter is not a CPU meter, it is fact an ASIO performance meter, which takes into account respective driver / buffer efficiency /implementation, as well as other aspects that have never been clearly defined. I have never regarded it as a CPU meter, even when it was labelled as such

Sometimes it can correlate closely to the TM CPU meter , often times it differs greatly. If you notice at V4 , it is no longer called a CPU meter as it was in the past , but an ASIO meter.

The Reaper Meter correlates very closely to the TM CPU meter at all times , so its hard to guage just by the 2 meters, as they are reporting different things. Reaper also reports the respective load per track as well which is incredible handy when spreading the load evenly across multiple cores.

What is evident tho is the ASIO spiking in Cubendo that many have reported with VST 2.x plugins and VSTi's , and whats even more concerning is its happening at the higher latency values as well. I also noted that MOTU's playback latency is a lot higher than the input, which is starting to happen more and more with drivers lately..

I digress,

What would be interesting if m127 could also include a snap of the TM CPU meter , so we can get a cross reference there , with just the one synth running I'll be interested how the load is being distributed if at all, and whether it is landing on one core..

[Vinark]

Hey m127.
I noticed you loaded a reaktor ensemble in Kore. There is a known issue (known by NI, with no fix date known so please complain there too), where if you load reaktor in cubase (any version, also SX1,2,3) that the cubase priority gets lowered to normal (from high). Resetting to high cures everything here. I do have to keep task manger set to low priority (from high) otherwise TM causeas crackles here. In the latest project I´m working on this is realy a pain cause lately I use reaktor a lot. If this helps feel free to post it on CBnet.
I don´t have reaper installed at the moment, so I don´t know what happens there with reaktor.
Good luck
Vincent

[TAFKAT]

.. Just a quick note to the O.P or the Mods..

Can we perhaps change the title of this thread to what it actually is about, just a thought..

BTW: The title at C5 is also not correct either, this is not a MP support issue, it is an issue with VST 2.x IMO.

I haven't linked to that thread as the responses from HQ are not in any way representative of the problem or of any assistance unfortunately.

[m127]

Takfak, thanks. I will go over your post tonight.



Please, all users who are experiencing/noticing the same multi-core CPU/audio spikes with just a few VST2 plugins in Cubase, kindly report at

http://forum.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=822898#822898


in the hope that this issue stops being deemed as "local" and goes unfiltered to Steinberg and gets addressed right away.

[TAFKAT]

M127,

Cool, keep us up to date..

Its been discussed at numerous times at the Nuendo forum, and each time ignored.., I seriously doubt that you will get a different response from HQ this time around unfortunately.., there has also been a lot of discussion at C.net in regards to VST 2.x issues.

Lets stay on the ball here and see what we can come up with.

[m127]

Hey m127.
I noticed you loaded a reaktor ensemble in Kore. There is a known issue (known by NI, with no fix date known so please complain there too), where if you load reaktor in cubase (any version, also SX1,2,3) that the cubase priority gets lowered to normal (from high). Resetting to high cures everything here. I do have to keep task manger set to low priority (from high) otherwise TM causeas crackles here. In the latest project I´m working on this is realy a pain cause lately I use reaktor a lot. If this helps feel free to post it on CBnet.
I don´t have reaper installed at the moment, so I don´t know what happens there with reaktor.
Good luck
Vincent

Hi Vincent, I just confirmed the Reaktor issue you are referring to. Let me know if you prefer me to let them know at a certain thread.


Curiously enough though, Reaper does not go "crazy" when one loads Reaktor.

[LEX]

More video's confirming issues. easier to see and compare.

THX

LEX

[Vinark]

Hi Vincent, I just confirmed the Reaktor issue you are referring to. Let me know if you prefer me to let them know at a certain thread.


Curiously enough though, Reaper does not go "crazy" when one loads Reaktor.
No thread, just NI support, there was a thread once but there it was denied :sleeping: just like Cnet, but support confirmed the issue right away even with a bug number. The email they send me made it look like they needed more complaints to have the authorisation to fix it. Did it also help with the spiking??
Good luck
Vincent
Oh and I checked other plugins for the same issue and couldn´t find any, seems to be reaktor only.

[zvenx]

Hey m127.
I noticed you loaded a reaktor ensemble in Kore. There is a known issue (known by NI, with no fix date known so please complain there too), where if you load reaktor in cubase (any version, also SX1,2,3) that the cubase priority gets lowered to normal (from high). Resetting to high cures everything here. I do have to keep task manger set to low priority (from high) otherwise TM causeas crackles here. In the latest project I´m working on this is realy a pain cause lately I use reaktor a lot. If this helps feel free to post it on CBnet.
I don´t have reaper installed at the moment, so I don´t know what happens there with reaktor.
Good luck
Vincent



Say What?

I had brought it up to the original poster that I too was having problems with Reaktor in Nuendo on the PC... NI's support finally got back to me yesterday ( I had posted the issue on their form over a month ago) and said that was the first time they were hearing about it and I should get in touch with Steinberg......yeah right... of course steinberg will say.. but all other plugins work fine get in touch with NI...

rsp

[Vinark]

Oh my god, are they crazy too? Or at least just as un-organized? I can get you the official bug number of NI if you want. I´m not at the right computer right now.
I have already checked it at 3 pc´s and all cubase incarnations and all have the same behaviour.

[zvenx]

Yes I would appreciate the ticket number...

rsp

[TAFKAT]

Question still remains whether it actually helped with the ASIO spiking ?

I don't understand how a plugin can actually change a priority setting within Cubendo, it doesn't make any sense, and even more puzzling is why neither NI or Steinberg want to acknowledge or address it.

It would also be interesting to note whether the ASIO spiking is present in seq3 , that will help pinpoint whther its a VST 2.x issue withing seq4

As I noted in an earlier post, IMO this is not a MP issue within Cubase, but something more related to the plugins themselves. Now that is not diminishing Steinberg's responsibility either, as the question needs to be answered why its causing issues within Cubendo and not other Apps.

Maybe its worth downloading the SONAR demo and see if its happening there or not, just to get a clearer angle on it.

BTW: I have a contact in NI support here locally, I'll give him a rev up today and see what he can dig up for me..

[Vinark]

Question still remains whether it actually helped with the ASIO spiking ?

I don't understand how a plugin can actually change a priority setting within Cubendo, it doesn't make any sense, and even more puzzling is why neither NI or Steinberg want to acknowledge or address it.

It would also be interesting to note whether the ASIO spiking is present in seq3 , that will help pinpoint whther its a VST 2.x issue withing seq4

As I noted in an earlier post, IMO this is not a MP issue within Cubase, but something more related to the plugins themselves. Now that is not diminishing Steinberg's responsibility either, as the question needs to be answered why its causing issues within Cubendo and not other Apps.

Maybe its worth downloading the SONAR demo and see if its happening there or not, just to get a clearer angle on it.

BTW: I have a contact in NI support here locally, I'll give him a rev up today and see what he can dig up for me..
Hi Vin:emote_beerchug:
As I said NI acknowledged the issue, I will have the bug no. soon, when I have access to my email archive (hope it is there). Their reply was not very encouraging, something like we know it is there, but not sure if we will fix it, since there is no update planned. Reaktor 6 will be out this year, so that may be the reason (same story everywhere:doh-1:).
If you have TM open and load reaktor in CB you see the priority change instantly. (In all cubase versions (at least SX2 3 and C4)). I only have asio spiking when I load reaktor and forget to change the priority back, which happens almost always cause I don´t use reaktor in every project. Others may have other issues of course.
Regarding other hosts, it´s a know fact (from the spectrasonics issues with their older sample player) that plugin developers can include special features/routines for specific hosts. The host identifies itself to the plugin too and can adapt. Seq4 identified itself differently from older versions which caused the spectrasonics plugind to run the wrong optimisations, which caused sync issues.

[TAFKAT]

.
If you have TM open and load reaktor in CB you see the priority change instantly. (In all cubase versions (at least SX2 3 and C4)). I only have asio spiking when I load reaktor and forget to change the priority back, which happens almost always cause I don´t use reaktor in every project. Others may have other issues of course. .

Hey Vincent,

Right, the TM priority gets shifted, I was thinking you were meaning the Audio priority in Cubendo. O.K now it makes more sense , well kind of..

That is something for others to keep an eye out for when experiencing the spiking..

It doesn't make any sense that the Reaktor plugin is forcing the mode change on Cubendo and not in other apps , it should be an easy enough fix, you would think..:eusa_think:

If you get a few minutes, can you please try it in the SONAR demo..

ohhh, and before I forget..

Cheers :emote_beerchug:

[Vinark]

I might try sonar tomorrow, but it has never been very successful here, crashes that need sorting and I´m not sure if that´s worth the trouble.
Reaper is easier to try, works great but I´m too used to cubase, is reaper also useful to try with reaktor?
I´m of to bed now, it´s nearing midnight and my wife and daughter get up at 7....so I will too.
Cheers again.

[TAFKAT]

..Oh I only meant to try SONAR just for this testing exercise, not to shift to it as an alternative DAW..:wink:

Reaper/Reaktor will definitely be worth looking into , the more info we get the better..

Thanks Mate..:D

[Vinark]

..Oh I only meant to try SONAR just for this testing exercise, not to shift to it as an alternative DAW..:wink:

Reaper/Reaktor will definitely be worth looking into , the more info we get the better..

Thanks Mate..:D
Knew that. I meant it was even frustrating when I tried to demo sonar it about half a year ago, no nice memories.
Some interesting results with reaper though. Initially reaper runs at normal priority in TM but if I set it at high and load reaktor, hoopla back to normal, so same issue, it is definitely REAKTOR. Reaper is on the other hand fine running at normal, as far as I can see (but I didn´t try to much...).
So it is now a fact; a plugin can change the basic priority of the application.Is nothing sacred any more:098:

[TAFKAT]

So it is now a fact; a plugin can change the basic priority of the application.Is nothing sacred any more:098:

It is strange..

On a stand alone I can understand the reasoning, but not a plugin.

I think you have also given us a clue as to why it isn't as pronounced in Reaper, as the priority of Reaper is already at Normal.

This really shouldn't be that hard to address now that it has been highlighted and confirmed., well you would think..:eusa_think:

Anyhow,

The O.P still hasn't confirmed whether it has actually helped with the spiking behavior ?

Any news there M ?

[Vinark]

OK it took some time:D, but i found the email from NI support,


Hello,

this is a known issue. Unfortunately I can't tell you when a bugfix can be
expected. Please refer to the bug with the number 38577 when asking for a fix
of this bug.

Best regards,

Stefan, Native Instruments Support Team

I wrote;

Every time I start a Cubase project in which I use Reaktor, I find my
Cubase priority set to normal instead of high, where I had left it when I last
saved the project. Inserting reaktor in a running project set at high priority
has the same effect. Even using Reaktor through Kore has this effect. I also
tried it on a different pc, but that made no difference.
I hope you can fix this annoying bug.
Thanks in advance

Best of luck,
Vincent

[LEX]

So is it a Cubase issue or NI issue?

LEX

[Vinark]

What a strange question Lex. Ofcourse it is a NI bug, they admit it and have a number for it (but no fix:rotfl:)

[MattiasNYC]

So just to satisfy my curiosity:

Is it confirmed that the problem goes away when not using Reaktor then?

[Vinark]

Depending on what exact problem you mean, here even resetting priority to high (in TM) after reaktor is loaded fixes it 100%. But maybe other people have different spiking issues.

[Vinark]

the bug with the number 38577 Anyone want to hustle NI a little to get it fixed.....?

[york909]

My first post here after a lot of lurking - thanks for all the good discussion!

I spent a long time trying to sort my Cubase 4/Reaktor problem out this week. My machine is Q6600, Delta 66, dual boot XP Pro and Vista/32 and is very solid on both XP and Vista with all Arturia, Altiverb, Arturia, Sonnox, Waves SSL- and NI Komplete except for Reaktor. I suffer ASIO meter spiking only when using Reaktor 5.1.5 on Vista, but I can't replicate this spiking on XP.

I also do see that the priority of cubase is lowered when I load an instance of Reaktor 5 on Cubase in XP or Vista.

So basically I think there are maybe two separate issues for my system:
1 – Launching Reaktor under Cubase causes Cubase priority to drop from 13->8 (affects XP and Vista, not a big problem for me and is easily reset in taskmanager).
2 – Launching Reaktor under Cubase on Vista only causes ASIO meter spiking - which can be stopped by switching off/back on the multiprocessing (sometimes VST reset is necessary too).

Slightly disappointingly, I received Cubase 5 today and the issue also occurs in C5 on my system - I was hoping that this issue might be fixed.

I'm deciding whether to go back to XP for the audio stuff.... after a shaky start I have grown to prefer Vista and get I get pretty much equivalent performance on both. Some software is running better on vista now..... :)

John
===========================
C4/C5 on Q6600 Vista 32 / Delta 66

[zvenx]

so today I heard back from my NI support ticket person.

Hello Richard Sven Patterson,

Sorry for the delayed response, I had my German teammates try to identify the
cause, but it is also foreign to them. Can you please forward a project file
so we may open it here to test?


aye aye aye.

rsp

[TAFKAT]

..There has to be something in the water in Germany .. :icon_rolleyes:

[zvenx]

I 'may have' thought it, but didn't say it... and still not saying it ;)
but I did send a project. let us see what happens.
rsp

[musicsymbiant]

Major Cubase Glitch of cpu spikes during playback fix for all who have experienced this.

If you are using a Sata to ide converter or docking station for your hard drive or vice verse stop as it will cause major cpu spikes and audio glitches. Also if you are not using a converter and are experiencing these symptoms, change your bit rate and buffer size permutations and/or test your audio card or interface on another system. Last, this could also be a sign that your hard drive is going out. Replace your hard drive where your project is saved and/or installed.

In my case i have experienced all these symptoms on a delta 1010 pci audio interface and have had the same symptoms occur when my card went defective, hard drive went defective, sata to ide converters interfeared or caused a latency with signal transference and/or data transfer, and buffer sizes were too low with a high bit rate on a low end PC system with an older cpu.

Hope this helps all who experience these symptoms.

[m127]

Guess what...

The water is still poisoned...

This CPU priority issue was NOT fixed in the new Reaktor beta 5.5 apparently...


http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?p=707485&posted=1#post707485


FUCKING 3 years fucking motherfucking waiting for fucks sake :eusa_wall:


could anyone else please give it a try and confirm/unconfirm?

[ckett]

Well,
I am glad i am not the only one experiencing this problem with Reaktor. Here has been my observations.

Cubase 5.1 and Reaktor 5.1 (whatever version before 5.5 is) - Cubase Priority changed from high. Nothing but CPU instability

Cubase 5.5 and Reaktor 5.5 - same problems but without the Priority changed from high. Same CPU instability

Reaper 3.63 or Presonus Studio One 1.5 with Reaktor 5.5 - No problems.

It is not NI fault I believe, Steinberg is having some kind of CPU scheduling problems with Reaktor.