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View Full Version : Multiple Video Tracks - and other related post pro vid questions...SOLVED



colony nofi
01-22-2009, 12:15 AM
Hey all.
Some questions for fellow Seq4 (nu or cubase) users who work to picture. Perhaps even some stuff to really ponder over.

I'm working on a sound track (sound design and music) for a large scale dance piece, which has a rather unique workflow. Instead of either writing the "score" and having the choreography done to the audio, its going to be a back and forth process. First some choreography phrases are developed, then I work my audio to that, then they may make changes based on how the sound interacts with the dance, it comes back to me etc.

The dance company I'm working with are 1500km away, so although I'll be making quite a few short trips over there, most of the work will be remote, through video. (The dance phrases are taped, and sent thru the net, and I work to these files in nuendo.)

The audio is not beat driven at all (a-tempo) - and there is LOADS (1000's) of small sync'd sounds being used. As you can imagine, its a re-conform nightmare; the biggest changes that look like being made are time based...ie, small parts will be slowed down / sped up, some pauses increased, etc.
And every time the piece is "re-performed" for camera for the changes, it is done without the original sound track (as it wouldn't sync). Therefore, they have no sync, and it makes identifying the exact changes very difficult.

So, I was thinking. I have often used the "guide track / new track" audio scenario to pick changes between two cuts of video. Place them against each other, and look for where they differ. Wouldn't it be GREAT to do this in nuendo (two video tracks, two small video monitors, and compare the two... that way exact sounds for the right movements would be FAR easier to identify.

This would also be a VERY useful workflow for some of the animation I've worked on, where the animation changes quite rapidly, but they are always wanting an "on the fly" temp mix to be available.

However, we don't have that feature. (I know, a VERY small percentage of people would use it I guess...maybe more in the future?)

So, I'm looking for ideas, however outrageous, to make this possible.
That, or perhaps ideas for a different workflow?

How are your creative workflow brains doing?

Here's what i've come up with so far, but yet to test it / look into it further.

I have 3 macs in my studio, so could maybe send t/c out my main workstation to sync to a second, and run some virtual video program on it to run the second piece of video. It would need to be frame accurate when nudging stuff around / working with edits etc.

Or perhaps run a copy of cubase on the other machine. System Link the two. I own cubase as well as N4, but @#$%@ its trapped on the same dongle, and SBurg have given me absolutely no upgrade path to allow me to do it.

Finally, is it possible to run nuendo and cubase on the same computer (each with a video screen...nuendo using my decklink, cubase using quicktime onscreen video), and have them run in sync???? (This actually sounds the best idea for me?

I plan on re-syncing using TEMPO changes for the most part. How? Well, most of the sounds are very short (1 to 4 frame long) audio parts. (or layers of the same.) So, if I manage to simply identify where the hits *should* be, I can do tempo ramps/changes to work them into the right spaces. Given the number of tracks and complexity of sounds, I'm thinking this might be a huge timesaver. Yet to test the idea though.

Please, any thoughts or ideas would be most appreciated!

Cheers, Brendan. (damn I wish there was a :geek: or :nerd: smiley for this post...)

colony nofi
01-22-2009, 01:36 AM
Thanks for moving this - (I should have a dunce hat)

As an experiment, I just got Cubase and Nuendo successfully syncing together using system link on the same computer.

BUT, changing focus of the programs switches "off" the video from the other program. If cubase is in focus, I see the QT video window from cubase. Switch to nuendo, I see nuendo's QT window...

This *is* on a laptop rig - I'm wondering that by using the decklink I may be able to use QT in one, and the decklink with the other, keeping them both active at the same time....

B.

kdm
01-22-2009, 02:55 AM
Hey Brendan - I don't have a perfect answer for you, but my initial thoughts are this - reconform could be easier with Virtual Katy, depending on what you are getting from the dance company, but obviously it's an expense.

Obviously for syncing Nuendo and Cubase, it would be better if you could work a deal to separate the licenses and run separate systems. On the same system, I'm not sure you will be able to get dual video, but with a Decklink I guess it might be possible, but I don't know for sure. I would wonder whether Nuendo and Cubase (or Decklink) will "share" Quicktime either way.

The other option you should investigate is running Chaingang (http://www.humatic.de/htools/chaingang.htm) on a second system instead of Cubase. I prefer System Link to MTC, but Chaingaing might be a cheaper and quicker solution for what you are trying to do.

TerryG
01-22-2009, 03:09 AM
If you can't buy a dongle for $25 and move the C4 license...

Drop $500 on the C4 competitive crossgrade (the C5 upgrade will be free in the US for any C4 bought between now and March '09).
You'll qualify as a Nuendo owner, and it will have it's own dongle.
(the combi-license only applied to those $199 deals in '07)

Just in case...
The competitive upgrade/cross grade price is for customers owning any of the products listed below that would like to purchase Cubase 4:

Adobe Audition
Apple Logic Platinum 5 or 6/ Logic Pro 6/ Logic Express
Cakewalk Sonar (Any Version)
MOTU Digital Performer version 3 or 4
Sony Vegas/ Vegas+DVD/ Acid Pro
Pro Tools 5/ 6/ LE/ TDM
Magix Samplitude, Sequoia
Ableton Live (Full Version)
Propellerheads Reason (Full Version)
Sibelius (Any Version)
Coda Finale (Full Version)
Tracktion (Full Version)



Charge your client the extra $500 fee for making you doing everything the hard way... :wink:

colony nofi
01-22-2009, 04:02 AM
Hm. The competetive x-grade is an interesting idea. I'll also wait and see what yamaha australia have to say about pricing here.

Thankfully, the project is of a decent size and has a reasonable budget (about as good as you can ever expect for an international dance group...) - so I can afford a toy or two if necessary.

Virtual Katy isn't an option for this... (unless I'm very much mistaken...)

An example workflow :

Video tape a dance phrase (1 to 4 minutes) in one continuous shot.
I write my sound/music to this video
Pass the sound back onto the company. They then see how it works, and re-work what they are doing. However, re-working may well involve completely changing tempos, pauses, adding bits, taking bits out etc. So, they re-rehearse and then tape the "new" version of the phrase for me.

All I get is a "mute" video of the new phrase.

Using tempo changes to re-sync things definately works (basically because all the audio bits are so tiny) - but being able to make these changes while referring to the old and new video would be SO SO much easier than just guessing "oh, thats should be the sound for that bit...", moving it, and then discovering its all wrong...

Cheers for the ideas...

Brendan. (loving the free wifi in adelaide airport....)

psvennevig
01-22-2009, 07:23 AM
Hi Brendan, you're a person of patience that's for sure.
I would NEVER have accepted such a job. Especially where the client deliver a video back without audio.
I'm I right in understanding that when they perform the adjusted performance, do they do that WITHOUT your last temp score????
If so it so crazy I can't believe it.

I admire your will to do your job. I would have thrown up and thrown the client out.
A big cheers! And hope you get filthy rich at the end of the gig.

Pål

colony nofi
01-22-2009, 08:51 PM
You are right - the new video is "mute" because they perform the new versions without the audio - its wouldn't work with the audio because of them *WANTING* to change tempos / change pauses / cut bits out / add bits.

Yes, it will take patience, but the project is REALLY interesting. Learning a tonne about the way professional dance troupes work - and the boundaries they are prepared to push. The work will tour europe and north america in 2010, so will let everyone know when its on :)

The amazing part is though the "muscle" memory that they have. They can perform a 2 or 3 minute phrase in the morning, and then later that day, and (if it hasn't had any changes) basically do it at the same pace, with the same gaps etc... like a great drummer... except they are not "counting" or keeping time in their heads at all. Its all off tempo (a-tempo really) - its all FEEL. I've been told that once they are fully rehearsed, they could perform the whole 75 minute project without audio, and it would basically sync! We'll see... <grin>.

Cheers, Brendan.

colony nofi
01-23-2009, 09:47 PM
Well, its right about now that I'm glad of 3 things
(1) I NEVER take the word of the local steinberg reps as truth (um, thats yamaha in australia)
(2) Blackmagic Rocks
(3) VST System Link can be used on the one computer....

So, Steinberg support have told me that it is impossible to sync cubase and nuendo on the one computer. This is not true, and I have emailed them to "let them know"....
Startup N4 and C4 - doesn't matter what order, and point each to the same VST audio device. In my case, I'm using a MH2882 extended for this project.
Open the VST system link in nuendo. Set the input to Bus 10 (or any ASIO buss that you have free). Output to Bus 11.
Open VST system link in cubase. Set the input to Bus 12, output to bus 13. Then, with your audio card's software (I *know* this would work with any RME gear as well as the MH, and pretty much any card with routing in the card itself...) Route Bus 11 to go to bus 12, and bus 13 to go to Bus 10. Turn system link on active and online in both applications.
Load video 1 into nuendo, using the blackmagic intensity as the video output device. Video 2 goes into cubase, using quicktime video.
Hit play. They both play in perfect sync (well, except for whenever the QT video engine problems rear their ugly heads!)
But thats it. Works GREAT! (2 QT windows WONT work - you need at least of of the videos to be running through an external output. I think a FW output may work as well.)

And thinking about it, there's no reason this was of syncing N4 and C4 together on the same machine wouldn't work with any audio card, so long as you could route a digtal output to a digital input. Damn, a single AES cable from "in" to "out" would give you the two channels necessary. Or a loop'd back SPDIF or ADAT cable. (RME would use the "internal" loopback feature.)

So there ya go. Very easy way of (a) running two projects in sync on the one computer, and (b) running two different videos at the same time in sync.

Where there's a will, there's a way...

(posted over at nuendo.com for reference as well...)

Cheers, Brendan.