SMART consoles

[shelter]

Had a good hands-on test of the TANGO in the studio recently.

Solidly built. good integration with NUENDO, Pyramix and a bunch
of others.

Nice intuitive feel and the workflow benefits are remarkable.

There were a couple of issues that the supplier noted and will
follow up on but, if they are resolved this could go on our
shopping list.

Any other experience out there, can any of you TANGO?

[HHaynes]

:bouncy:

I have a series of videos showing Nuendo and Cubase integration with the Tango that will be out later this week or early next.

[shelter]

Cool.

As a thought and assuming that you've not covered it. Using the
Tango with two concurrent systems is something of a problem.
We connected it to two of our Nuendo systems but the time to
switch over from one to the other was about a minute and is far
too long. That's one of the improvements that our supplier took
away with him.

[HHaynes]

My understanding is that hot-switching between multiple hosts is definitely on their roadmap, just behind some other more pressing objectives.

[LEX]

Pricing? What about pricing?

Pricing is impossible to find.

LEX

[shelter]

Here is the price quoted on their site:
http://www.smartav.net/tango/index.php

Our local dealer is able to supply at USD8K per unit and about USD6K
for the extender. The main difficulty is the exchange rate since these
are made in Australia.

Oh and BTW the DVI socket on the back currently does nothing but is
expected to be used for some future feature.

[HHaynes]

Here is the price quoted on their site:
http://www.smartav.net/tango/index.php

Our local dealer is able to supply at USD8K per unit and about USD6K
for the extender. The main difficulty is the exchange rate since these
are made in Australia.

Oh and BTW the DVI socket on the back currently does nothing but is
expected to be used for some future feature.

At least for now - the main unit is $7990US including shipping. The extension bay is $6990 including shipping via FedEx Int'l Air Freight. From Sydney to Los Angeles it was two days (through Anchorage, AK). No telling what the future will hold for US pricing - or conversion from the AUS dollar to your native currency - YMMV.

The DVI socket is *most* *definitely* used for bridging to the extension bay. The first extension bay is "dumb" - essentially a second monitor with touch screen and physical controllers. When you connect the extension bay, you use the DVI to run the monitor, a USB jump is used to transmit the touch screen information from the second screen back to the main unit, and the jumper network cable connects all of the hardware controls (sliders, macro buttons, etc) back to the main control that is then processed and sent back to the host across the main network connection.

[Animus]

Our local dealer is able to supply at USD8K per unit and about USD6K
for the extender. The main difficulty is the exchange rate since these
are made in Australia.
.

Australia? Come on! Get out of here! With the exchange rate this thing should be no more than 600 bucks for us in the United States. Vin was telling me they just got running water last month in the village he lives in. And it better come with a free boomerang.

[shelter]

The DVI socket is *most* *definitely* used for bridging to the extension bay. The first extension bay is "dumb" - essentially a second monitor with touch screen and physical controllers. When you connect the extension bay, you use the DVI to run the monitor, a USB jump is used to transmit the touch screen information from the second screen back to the main unit, and the jumper network cable connects all of the hardware controls (sliders, macro buttons, etc) back to the main control that is then processed and sent back to the host across the main network connection.

Thanks for that info. Our supplier here didn't know what it was for and we
tried connecting a monitor to it but, obviously now, without a chance of
success. Once they can sort out the things we saw as shortcomings and
it's able to meet our requirements they'll bring it around for testing. Until
then it's business as usual.

[HHaynes]

Our supplier here didn't know what it was for and we[/COLOR]
tried connecting a monitor to it but, obviously now, without a chance of
success. Once they can sort out the things we saw as shortcomings and
it's able to meet our requirements they'll bring it around for testing. Until
then it's business as usual.

A read through the manuals will save a lot of time wasted trying to get the device to do things it's not intended for...

[shelter]

Good point, we've passed that onto the local supplier. Thanks.

[HHaynes]

A quick FYI - I just posted some Tango videos showing Nuendo/Cubase integration. Bear in mind - they are *not* streaming videos - but should be downloaded and played locally on your own machine. They were shot in HD and I encoded them to a pretty generous 720p data rate. At 4+ minutes per clip, the file sizes are *not* trivial. You should use the "Save Link As..." or like feature in your web browser.

Also bear in mind that I encoded these *both* in mp4 and WMV9 formats - if you have QT7 player or other handler that will play back H.264 encoded files - I recommend you grab the mp4 versions of these files since they're smaller.

Here's the list of vids.

Nuendo Chapter 1
Track Selection & Ergonomic Spreads
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch1_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch1_HHaynes.wmv)

Nuendo Chapter 2
Automation
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch2_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch2_HHaynes.wmv)

Nuendo Chapter 3
Transport, Jog & Edit
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch3_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch3_HHaynes.wmv)

Nuendo Chapter 4
Mix & Control Room
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch4_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Nuendo_Ch4_HHaynes.wmv)

Cubase Chapter 1
Transport, Navigation & Zoom
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch1_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch1_HHaynes.wmv)

Cubase Chapter 2
Rotary Encoders - EQ
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch2_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch2_HHaynes.wmv)

Cubase Chapter 3
Rotary Encoders - Plugin Control
mp4 (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch3_HHaynes.mp4) WMV (http://www.titanlineaudio.com/documents/SmartAV/SmartAV_Tango_Cubase_Ch3_HHaynes.wmv)

These will probably be up on the SmartAV site in a few days. Also, I expect that streaming versions will show up on YouTube via the audioMIDI.com web site - who's the newest US dealer for SmartAV.

I already see a minor tweak I need to make to one of the Cubase videos for a slight color correction issue that skewed the colors on the opening card (but the rest of the video is fine). If anyone finds an issue with any of the files (save for local download issues), or if you have any questions or comments, please let me know. Thanks!

H3

[shelter]

Hi Houston

Nice videos. Not quite TANGO for Dummies but will come in handy
when we get a unit back in the studio.

BR

Richard.

[HHaynes]

Hi Houston

Nice videos. Not quite TANGO for Dummies but will come in handy
when we get a unit back in the studio.

BR

Richard.

Hey Richard - thanks for the note. I'm kind of curious what you mean by "not quite TANGO for Dummies". I actually think that might be a compliment. :) I was aiming to provide something with meat on the bone, assuming that anyone who's interested in the console would have already looked at Stav's videos on the SmartAV site - which are very good but focus on Tango primitive operations but don't show integration with a host.

[shelter]

Hi Houston

It was a compliment but in a curiously indirect way. The pace of the demo
is such that someone who has not been exposed to the TANGO "hands on"
could be overwhelmed by it all and miss a lot of the value you've built in.
Hence the for Dummies analogy.

I've had a few hours with a TANGO but must admit even I had a degree of
difficulty following your hands, the display, the commentary and keeping it
all glued together.

Maybe I'm just getting old or a Dummy...

Richard.

[The Guru]

How does the solo/mute bug affect this hardware?

[HHaynes]

Too funny - We actually "opened up" the pace of the voice-over to slow things down a bit. What I wanted was something that would be good for multiple viewings. The one-and-done stuff doesn't seem like it's worth the effort when you're pulling down a sub-100MB video file.

Also - this is really just "the tip of the iceberg" - not only was I going half-speed to get stuff on camera, but there are complex scenarios that we simply didn't have time to film and assemble. There are dozens of other workflow enhancements that tranforms the way I work that I've not touched on (calling up the score editor from the Edit Panels, using the memory functions to set up and write snapshot automation between locators on the timeline, etc, etc). I'll probably do a set of "advanced" demos at some point, using N4 and Cubase 5.

As far as the "mute bug" is concerned - my general sense is that SmartAV has adhered to Steinberg's rules - so I just hit the "Solo Clear" touchpoint and I don't think twice about it. It makes me wonder what's going to happen when Steinberg re-factors that, and whether that will make SmartAV have to go back tot he drawing board and re-work that area to map it properly. In the end it's a fairly trivial change from a controller perspective - but there's always a chance for one side or the other to muss things up in the process. But like I said - I don't even think about it. It just works.

[HHaynes]

The videos are now posted on the SmartAV site - rendered to a smaller frame but it also means a much smaller video file size (all are <20MB).

http://www.smartav.net/tango/galleries.php#Video

[roon]

ive been interested in this unit and extenders.

i hope there is none of the fader bounceback and other problems that were evident in the mackie controllers in nuendo - all the way up to the mcu pro. It made mixing impossible.

I just got a quote for one of these the other day and the are asking $10Gau for the unit alone which seems to be a bit of a price reduction with the current exchange rates. I dont think that you will get a free boomerang with that though. LOL.
Get a didge anyway, they are more musical.

The mix24 unit is very reminiscent of the darth vader control ship death star, and i really like the look and feel of it. BUt the bold design may not be for some.

The ability to quickly group with the swipe of the hand is amazing.


A new audio law has been generated here, in the threads above.
A GLANCING LOOK AT THE REAR PANEL IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR READING THE MANUAL.

i alwys prefer a look at the back panel than a read thru of the monitor LOL... i think i would have made the same mistake.

[HHaynes]

FYI - I've published a new round of Tango videos that show off it's features as well as integration with Nuendo and Cubase:

Nuendo Ch5, Extension Bay Basics (http://shar.es/B3FX)

Nuendo Ch6, Edit Panel & Keys in Use (http://shar.es/B3Qn)

Cubase Ch4, Edit Panel Programming (http://shar.es/B39P)

Cubase Ch5, Inserts+ Mode & VSTi Integration (http://shar.es/B38k)

[OpenMind]

Wow! Never heard about these devices... Very, very nice concept! :icon_cool:

But the price.... isn't it a little too expensive?

As I see it:
- Mackie Control....... let's say $1300
- 22" touch screen ... about $500
- a nice computer ........... $1000

That's $2800 instead of $8000
Oh wait... I forgot the internal software they had to develop... let's be generous and give them $1500 for that... together that's still just a little more than half of what they like to cash... or did I overlook something? :eusa_think:

[HHaynes]

You're looking at the value proposition the wrong way - compare to the Euphonix MC Pro ($15k street) and it's a steal. I have a main console *plus* the extension bay and still came in under the price of the MC Pro. Plus, I see it as a better design for my way of working (I prefer a mixing surface as opposed to an editing surface) and it's built like a tank. Nothing Mackie makes compares to the quality of SmartAV's hardware.

[OpenMind]

I understand your enthousiasm when comparing to Euphonix... but hey, they are even more overpriced :D

The design is very nice indeed... but I never understood the happyness about great looking audio hardware. Functionality is all that counts to me :icon_yes:

But still... great concept... and the workflow will be like a dream.
I guess I would be happy to put my MCU-Pro + two extenders on Ebay when the price was 30-40% less :icon_cool: ... and maybe I would spend a few thousand for a nice painting to look at :D


BTW: Nice informative videos! :icon_cool:

[HHaynes]

Whatever dude - until you actually use a professional rig you can't appreciate the value of having hardware that you know will hold up under rigorous, day-long use for years on end. Talk up Mackie all you want but the build quality just isn't there - because most of their cheaper gear is designed to a much lighter use profile. I know this because I've spent time with former Mackie people that told me as much.

Make yourself happy, but don't delude yourself that the only difference is price and looks.

[OpenMind]

Whatever dude - until you actually use a professional rig you can't appreciate the value of having hardware that you know will hold up under rigorous, day-long use for years on end. Talk up Mackie all you want but the build quality just isn't there - because most of their cheaper gear is designed to a much lighter use profile. I know this because I've spent time with former Mackie people that told me as much.

Make yourself happy, but don't delude yourself that the only difference is price and looks.

Well, first; I've never been a Mackie fan. Always kept myself far from their equipment if possible. In the controller area they have the only ussable thing on the market because the others don't have displays above the channels.

Second; Touching buttons, knobs and faders for 25-30 years now. My favorite faderbox used to be the SSL4000G. 12 years ago I sold my 1350 square feet recording studio because I saw what CD-ROM and the internet where going to do to the music bussiness... so yes, I know how professional things can feel.

Since those days, I learned to see things in proportions... If I do any audio business these days, it is in my home. The few music customers I have nowadays are poor young people who just start to discover how their music can sound when it is mixed properly. I give 'm a little help because I like their developing talents.
80% of what I do with music, is just for my own pleasure and not for customers anymore.
For that reason I think that paying a few thousand dollars extra, just for a great design that makes my studio look better, is a little bit over the top.
If I still would earn 500 dollars a day, I would be happy to buy some eye-catching buttons and lights... Would look great on pictures and bring me more dollars... very good investment.
But now it's just about music... mixing tracks and pumping out some CD's and MP3s.
Again... when the price goes down 30-40%, I will be ordering tomorrow. Then I'm sure than it's worth the price.
Rude said; It's really nothing more than a bunch of faders, a touch screen and a computer with software. All functionallity is in the software, not in the hardware.

Don't misunderstand me! I'm a fan already, but the price is just too high.

[D]

Well, first; I've never been a Mackie fan. Always kept myself far from their equipment if possible. In the controller area they have the only ussable thing on the market because the others don't have displays above the channels.

Actually, I have never found that to be a problem with my FW-1884. The LCD panel that they provide I never even find myself using very much. In addition I get 8 decent mic pres (which are now even better with the upgraded opamps), which I don't use much either except for stuff I don't record with. I also get digital I/O and a 4x4 MIDI patchbay. Blows the Mackie right out of the water IMO for around the same price.

I've had my FW for 6 years now, and the only problems have been some faders getting weak because they needed lubrication and some less than top-shelf opamps in the signal path.. If I am not mistaken Houston also used to be an FW-1884 owner.

[ROCKINROG]

Thanks for posting these Houston. These were nicely done. I swear the more I see of this controller the more I'm thinking forget about the Euphonix Artist Series. The Tango is much more versatile and tactile and even though the price point is still kinda high I feel it's a much better controller.

[OpenMind]

FW-1884Yes... Nice gear. But I already had my Fireface 800 before I even thought about getting faders. That's why I didn't look at devices with build-in converters and pre-amps.
I even first tried two Behringer faderboxes before I went to the MCU-Pro... And maybe I would have kept the Behringers if they only had a display. Nothing wrong with B. as long as it's not in the main audio chain :D

But let's not get too far off-topic and go back to TANGO :icon_cool:

[shelter]

Gents.

Either you have a real need for the functionality or you don't.
The price is the price and discussing that to death won't change
it.

Comparing a Tango to a Mackie is rather like comparing an Airbus
to a Cessna, there is no comparison because they were made with
totally different requirements in mind and for a totally different
audience.

The SSL4000G was a very nice large format console but was intended
for production. The Tango is fundamentaly a post production device.

The Mackie and similar low cost devices are fine for the project and
home studio user and within their limitations can be quite effective.
In a commercial operation where every minute lost can mean the
difference between profit and loss of repeat business I don't know of
anyone, at least in their right minds, that would take the risk of using
anything less than professional equipment. Call it insurance if you like.

Richard.

[OpenMind]

Comparing a Tango to a Mackie is rather like comparing an Airbus to a Cessna, there is no comparison because they were made with
totally different requirements in mind and for a totally different
audience.

I did not compare the two things!
I know the TANGO is much more... that's why I added a touchscreen, computer and software to 'my' price.
I only compared the TANGO's faderpart to a Mackie... and that's an honest comparison.

[shelter]

It is correct that you didn't try to compare them directly but
you did by implication! Focusing on a single component, the
fader is hardly a fair approach. It's rather like comparing the
gear lever on a Ferrari 612 with that of a Fiat 500.

Adding a touchscreen and a computer doesn't give you a Tango
only a pile of components. The addition of some software is not
going to provide you with a fully integrated Tango system either.

I don't actually know what the Tango development costs were but
they will have been significant. Recovering those costs across a
relatively small market will be challenging.

Richard.

[OpenMind]

It is correct that you didn't try to compare them directly but
you did by implication! Focusing on a single component, the
fader is hardly a fair approach. It's rather like comparing the
gear lever on a Ferrari 612 with that of a Fiat 500.

Adding a touchscreen and a computer doesn't give you a Tango
only a pile of components. The addition of some software is not
going to provide you with a fully integrated Tango system either.

I did not say you should exchange the TANGO for a Mackie, a touch screen and a computer... even if it is possible (my original profession is electronic engineer / programmer).
I was only describing the technology that is in use... and the prices I mentioned where including profit already.

Everything I did was summing the prices of seperate devices to compare to the technology used with TANGO. Just a calculation to find a reasonable price :wink:

The only dedicated development that was done for TANGO was the case-design to pack the seperate devices in one housing in an ergonomic way... and then there's the development of the operating system.
Screens, faders, buttons, knobs, leds and computer chips are all standard electronics. Nothing to develop there.
There may be one or two dedicated chips inside, but their price is only 5 or 10 dollar when a few thousand are produced... include 1000% profit for the research and they will be no more than 100-120 dollar each. That's why I mentioned a generous 1000 dollar for the build-in computer + 1500 for the software that will not even have the power of a standard PC.

[ROCKINROG]

I think if they priced it a bit lower, maybe 4k for the main and 3k for the extension they will more than double their sales worldwide. It's an old sales thing. Sell at lower cost and larger volumes and you most definitely make more money. :D

[shelter]

Everything I did was summing the prices of seperate devices to compare to the technology used with TANGO. Just a calculation to find a reasonable price :wink:

The only dedicated development that was done for TANGO was the case-design to pack the seperate devices in one housing in an ergonomic way... and then there's the development of the operating system.
Screens, faders, buttons, knobs, leds and computer chips are all standard electronics. Nothing to develop there.
There may be one or two dedicated chips inside, but their price is only 5 or 10 dollar when a few thousand are produced... include 1000% profit for the research and they will be no more than 100-120 dollar each. That's why I mentioned a generous 1000 dollar for the build-in computer + 1500 for the software that will not even have the power of a standard PC.


Well you certainly sound very confident. So are you saying that you could
manufacture and sell, at a reasonable profit of course, a device with identical
functions, features, quality and reliability to that of a Tango for $4500 FOB.,
plus of course the warranty, after sales service and support WW to go along
with all of that?

The box shouldn't be a problem after all that's only metal and a standard part
of sorts.

Richard.

[OpenMind]

Everything I did was summing the prices of seperate devices to compare to the technology used with TANGO. Just a calculation to find a reasonable price :wink:

The only dedicated development that was done for TANGO was the case-design to pack the seperate devices in one housing in an ergonomic way... and then there's the development of the operating system.
Screens, faders, buttons, knobs, leds and computer chips are all standard electronics. Nothing to develop there.
There may be one or two dedicated chips inside, but their price is only 5 or 10 dollar when a few thousand are produced... include 1000% profit for the research and they will be no more than 100-120 dollar each. That's why I mentioned a generous 1000 dollar for the build-in computer + 1500 for the software that will not even have the power of a standard PC.


Well you certainly sound very confident. So are you saying that you could
manufacture and sell, at a reasonable profit of course, a device with identical
functions, features, quality and reliability to that of a Tango for $4500 FOB.,
plus of course the warranty, after sales service and support WW to go along
with all of that?

The box shouldn't be a problem after all that's only metal and a standard part
of sorts.

Richard.

Of course that would be possible! You would need mass production to gain a good profit... building one single product by hand, would take to many hours, mainly because the software needs to be developed. In that case the price would not differ so much from TANGO.

The only reason that TANGO can be sold for this price is because there is no other cheaper manufacturer with the same concept yet. TANGO is taking customers who think that Euphonix is much too expensive (and it is).
As long as there is no competition, they can charge what they like, as long as it is substantial lower than the only competition

But if another brand would come with something like TANGO, you can expect not to pay more than 5000 dollars... and again another manufacter maybe even less because of the mass production by poor chinese woman and children who work for 2 dollars a day.

Building equipment like TANGO is not so difficult at all.
The activity that will eat a few hundred hours of development time, is the operating software,, making it ergonomic... building an intuitive user interface on the touch screen.

There will always be a market for bling-bling (that's what I call visual designed audio equipment)... There has always been a market for that... remember Bang & Olafson HiFi equipment from the seventies/eighties? It looked very futuristic, but inside it was just standard Philips electronics.... Many people liked to pay a lot of money for something that was average in purpose-quality.
Ik think the same about iPod by the way... also a lot of bling-bling with an average sound quality.

Tango may have a very professional concept with a great workflow, but in the end it's 'just' a control surface with a touch-screen for a lot of programmable controls, and a small computer.

The software is where they really deserve a lot of credits... It took a lot of time to think and try before something with an intuitive workflow would pop-up. Good software has a price, good ideas have a price.
In mass production something like TANGO might have a hardware price of about 1000-1500 dollars... and add a few hundred to the price of each device for software development.
I think that a consumer price of about 4500-5000 dollars would leave enough profit for survival, development and middlemen.

But I think 'survival' is the critical word in what I say... A lot of people still only think about big houses, big cars and getting financially rich as fast as possible. I don't believe there is any ideology behind new developments like iPod, TANGO, Blackberry, TomTom etc.... it's just capitalism that made these devices appear in the market.
And because they look and are expensive, there will always be people who think that those looks and prices are relative to quality and functionallity.... until cheaper brands appear, which of course never will be good... according to those who payed a lot more for the same functionallity.

If people like to pay what the brand wants to get, they are free to do that if that's what makes them happy.
I'm no less human than the bling-bling people, and not completely without emotions when it comes to interesting concepts with buttons, displays, leds en some nice functionality... and I'm glad to pay a little extra just because someone had a great idea... but I'm not crazy (anymore...). I will not pay double for things that are not indispensable and are only there to make life/work a little easier.

But I don't think we should discuss to deep about marketing politics and psychology... as I said, I'm not completely without emotions when I discover nice gadgets like TANGO... I really like it! :icon_cool:

[shelter]

Well you've listed some of the reasons why it could have a lower price but
have not committed to manufacturing a single unit for $4500 and quite
rightly so because, without a clear market share or volume of sales to base
your production on you'd have to take substantial risks. The makers of Tango
were prepared to take those risks and create a saleable product.

Although suitably qualified to be so I'm not remotely interested in the
technology itself but, only in the value that it adds to my business and the
the revenue which keeps the studios open.

From the big pro wallet down to the almost empty amateur wallet it's all about
opportunity and choice. Where little opportunity exists choice will be limited.

With the proliferation of devices on the market there are choices for all sizes
of wallet and over time some of the functions and features from the high-end
pro devices will eventually find their way into the lower priced devices.

Richard.

[TAFKAT]

" Houston we have a problem...."

Hey Houston, if you are reading in, Man, I am so sorry .. :-(

During some backend admin where I was sweeping out some spammers ( listed as awaiting confirmation emails ) , you somehow came up in the list which is rather strange considering you have been registered here for a while, so I have no idea why your account was listed as waiting for a confirmation email again, unless you screwed up changing a password.

Anyhow to cut a long story short, I accidentally left your account tagged with the spammers and deleted the account.. Doh !

So you haven't been banned , and or deleted for any other reason than I farked up..

Sorry Bro.

Please register again, it will need to be under different name tho unless I can find a way to reverse the action , which I think may not be possible..

:009: