Nuendo 5 +NEK

[JOGA]

From Nuendo.com:




Timo mentioned somewhere, that there is no need for another NEK. So let´s hope that he was right on this topic.

AFAIK, there will be a new Nuendo (5) and an updated NEK (5) which will contain the "scoring and midi" features that Cubase 5 now has.
So exactly the same as in Nuendo4 (Nuendo+NEK) but then updated to version 5.

Unless something has changed that I don't kown about ...

Fredo

Here we (probably) go again.

Cheers

JOGA

[TAFKAT]

.. they didn't learn a single thing from the fallout that was the NEK farce... , is anyone here really surprised.. :headbang-1:

[The Guru]

I think it's good they charge Nuendo users more for C4 features. They can afford it. :sulkoff:

[JOGA]

I think it's good they charge Nuendo users more for C4 features. They can afford it. :sulkoff:

From Steinberg's webshop:

Cubase 5 Update from Cubase 4 or Cubase SX3: € 199,00 incl. VAT
Nuendo 4 Update from Nuendo 3: € 249,00 incl. VAT
Nuendo 4 Update from Nuendo 3 incl. NEK: € 399,00 incl. VAT

The NEK seems to cost as much as the Cubase update!

Cheers

JOGA

[The Guru]

From Steinberg's webshop:

Cubase 5 Update from Cubase 4 or Cubase SX3: € 199,00 incl. VAT
Nuendo 4 Update from Nuendo 3: € 249,00 incl. VAT
Nuendo 4 Update from Nuendo 3 incl. NEK: € 399,00 incl. VAT

The NEK seems to cost as much as the Cubase update!

Cheers

JOGA

I haven't looked at the exchange rate re: Euros to US dollars, but SB says the update will cost E199/$199.:eusa_think: Isn't that about half? :eusa_think:

[JOGA]

Hi The Guru!

I've been high as a kite a few times in my life, but isn't that a German Lufwaffe uniform you're wearing?

Cheers

JOGA

Retired Fleet Admiral
Commander of Steinbergs lost Flagship Nuendo 4

[MattiasNYC]

Much ado about not that much, imho....

So they switched gears at a major upgrade and split up their apps a bit, I don't think it's a big deal. I even think it makes sense to a degree (and in and by itself).

Now users can choose between a more music focused feature set (Cubase) a more post-focused feature set (Nuendo) and all features (N+NEK). That gives users more options as far as how much money to spend is concerned. Hardly a problem in my opinion.

I also get the feeling that some would NOT have barked as loudly if they had continued the same two softwares (no NEK) but raised the upgrade price. At that point people would most likely have been somewhat annoyed but accepted the fact that the product was now more expensive. The fact that it's split out into N+NEK doesn't change that reality in the least. Only thing it does is allow some to spend less.

I bought the N+NEK upgrade myself, but I sure as hell don't feel bad because some other people are now able to spend less. As a matter of (close to) fact; if it had been one big Nuendo as people have called for after the NEK came out, I likely would have paid the same amount anyways...

Lastly, out of everything Steinberg does that is questionable, I really think this is of little concern. This was also my point when the issue was brought up at N.com. Why not save the aggravation for more important things? And sure enough, in my opinion we did end up having way more important things to worry about: solo/mute not working properly, virgin territories not working properly, truncated video on import not working properly (after announced fix), etc etc... That is where it makes sense to me to lay the energy in the form of protest. When Nuendo 4 came out and was split up into that and the NEK, we had a choice to not buy into that. The issues that lead to the most recent massive wave of complaints were nothing of the sort - they were things we were unaware of at the time we bought the software, things that should have been fixed - not a choice....

But that's just me and my opinion obviously....

[The Guru]

Hi The Guru!

I've been high as a kite a few times in my life, but isn't that a German Lufwaffe uniform you're wearing?

Cheers

JOGA

Retired Fleet Admiral
Commander of Steinbergs lost Flagship Nuendo 4

It's my (insert Stone Mountain employee of your choice) Halloween costume. :eusa_whistle:

[Jonesy]

Customers will vote with their wallets. Steinberg is pricing Nuendo out of the market, thus making sure that it will always be a "fringe" application. Charging extra so that Nuendo can match Cubase in what it can do is supremely stupid.

[MattiasNYC]

Customers will vote with their wallets. Steinberg is pricing Nuendo out of the market, thus making sure that it will always be a "fringe" application. Charging extra so that Nuendo can match Cubase in what it can do is supremely stupid.

Not necessarily. I think they're trying to reach a different market. It's actually not entirely stupid thinking. Cubase would NEVER have caught on in the "pro" post-community. Not a chance. Enter "Nuendo". New sort of cool name. New cool unique features. It made some progress where Cubase didn't. Using the NEK is perhaps an attempt to keep the distinction conceptually between the two which could help marketing.

As for pricing the market they're aiming for is already spending significantly more than the potential Cubase buyer, so I don't think that's a problem. And let's face it; there's a point where people think something is inherently better once the price is above a certain point, regardless of whether that's true or not.

Lastly, I'm absolutely not saying that they did this changeover well. Not at all. And I think it was very poorly timed considering all the other shit they created........

[Animus]

Much ado about not that much, imho....

So they switched gears at a major upgrade and split up their apps a bit, I don't think it's a big deal. I even think it makes sense to a degree (and in and by itself).

Now users can choose between a more music focused feature set (Cubase) a more post-focused feature set (Nuendo) and all features (N+NEK). That gives users more options as far as how much money to spend is concerned. Hardly a problem in my opinion.

I also get the feeling that some would NOT have barked as loudly if they had continued the same two softwares (no NEK) but raised the upgrade price. At that point people would most likely have been somewhat annoyed but accepted the fact that the product was now more expensive. The fact that it's split out into N+NEK doesn't change that reality in the least. Only thing it does is allow some to spend less.

I bought the N+NEK upgrade myself, but I sure as hell don't feel bad because some other people are now able to spend less. As a matter of (close to) fact; if it had been one big Nuendo as people have called for after the NEK came out, I likely would have paid the same amount anyways...

Lastly, out of everything Steinberg does that is questionable, I really think this is of little concern. This was also my point when the issue was brought up at N.com. Why not save the aggravation for more important things? And sure enough, in my opinion we did end up having way more important things to worry about: solo/mute not working properly, virgin territories not working properly, truncated video on import not working properly (after announced fix), etc etc... That is where it makes sense to me to lay the energy in the form of protest. When Nuendo 4 came out and was split up into that and the NEK, we had a choice to not buy into that. The issues that lead to the most recent massive wave of complaints were nothing of the sort - they were things we were unaware of at the time we bought the software, things that should have been fixed - not a choice....

But that's just me and my opinion obviously....

Well I won't have a problem with NEK this time as long as their are only new features in it. Last time around they basically stripped features we already had and then charged collectively more for the upgrade than it was for the N2 to N3 upgrade. That was where the major contention was.

I won't even talk about how Nuendo has totally been mismarketed. I think Nuendo had a real change at Protools. Cubase will never ever be in that position and they are now marketing it as the flagship. lol Nuendo as a mere Post app. It's sad really.

[TAFKAT]

I doubt there will be any new features added to the NEK , it will continue to be the marketing farce it always has been..

Anyone with the NEK will need to upgrade that portion as well again , otherwise you will loose what you currently have now.

I am way past arguing or even trying to have a reasonable discussion, as I don't believe there is one to be had. The whole thing got beaten bloody last time, and for those that believe that it was actually a good marketing decisions then more power to you , I am sure Steinberg thank you , for those of us who see otherwise, there is no point even attempting to pose a view anymore IMO.

[The Guru]

Linky to the NEK war thread? :D

[TAFKAT]

Knock yourself out.. Here (http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=nek&start=0)

The battle was ranging on numerous fronts at the same time, but this thread well give you the background to why I couldn't be bothered breathing another word about it.., there were a lot of people talking at each other, not too each other, with the inevitable result ...:willy_nilly:

[Jonesy]

I would bet that people that use Nuendo for music production outnumber those that use it for post by a huge amount. If so, he NEK is hitting the majority of Nuendo customers. In the end the balance sheet will determine if Steinberg made the right decisions. They put all of the music stuff like scoring and MIDI into Nuendo and told users that Nuendo would always have all of Cubase's functionality. But then they say that Nuendo is for post and Cubase is for music production, but wait until 2006 to backflip and start stripping music functionality out of Nuendo to the detriment of their largest customer demographic. I can't follow their reasoning.
Steinberg's marketing department is Nuendo's worst enemy.

[Animus]

I had started a poll last year I believe at nuendo.com surveying who used Nuendo for what. Post was one of the options, along with Music composition, Audio engineering, and maybe one other. Post came dead last I beleive. I will try and find it.

[Animus]

http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12876&highlight=

wow that was longer ago than I thought. 2006. How time flies.

[Tumppi Järnefelt]

Much ado about not that much, imho....

So they switched gears at a major upgrade and split up their apps a bit, I don't think it's a big deal. I even think it makes sense to a degree (and in and by itself).

Now users can choose between a more music focused feature set (Cubase) a more post-focused feature set (Nuendo) and all features (N+NEK). That gives users more options as far as how much money to spend is concerned. Hardly a problem in my opinion.

I also get the feeling that some would NOT have barked as loudly if they had continued the same two softwares (no NEK) but raised the upgrade price. At that point people would most likely have been somewhat annoyed but accepted the fact that the product was now more expensive. The fact that it's split out into N+NEK doesn't change that reality in the least. Only thing it does is allow some to spend less.

I bought the N+NEK upgrade myself, but I sure as hell don't feel bad because some other people are now able to spend less. As a matter of (close to) fact; if it had been one big Nuendo as people have called for after the NEK came out, I likely would have paid the same amount anyways...

Lastly, out of everything Steinberg does that is questionable, I really think this is of little concern. This was also my point when the issue was brought up at N.com. Why not save the aggravation for more important things? And sure enough, in my opinion we did end up having way more important things to worry about: solo/mute not working properly, virgin territories not working properly, truncated video on import not working properly (after announced fix), etc etc... That is where it makes sense to me to lay the energy in the form of protest. When Nuendo 4 came out and was split up into that and the NEK, we had a choice to not buy into that. The issues that lead to the most recent massive wave of complaints were nothing of the sort - they were things we were unaware of at the time we bought the software, things that should have been fixed - not a choice....

But that's just me and my opinion obviously....


I think this is so right. If someone don't need these NEK features I think it is great that SB offers Nuendo without them.
I bought NEK even thought I don't need it much. I could have very well lived without it. I think it is great that we have the option now.

Bye / Tumppi

[Animus]

Knock yourself out.. Here (http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=nek&start=0)

The battle was ranging on numerous fronts at the same time, but this thread well give you the background to why I couldn't be bothered breathing another word about it.., there were a lot of people talking at each other, not too each other, with the inevitable result ...:willy_nilly:

man that was a fun thread! Terry and m2 were really going at each other. Maybe I should't remind you two of that. Looks like I finally calmed everything down and got everyone to agree NEK was a bad thing.

[MattiasNYC]

Well I won't have a problem with NEK this time as long as their are only new features in it. Last time around they basically stripped features we already had and then charged collectively more for the upgrade than it was for the N2 to N3 upgrade. That was where the major contention was.

Fine. But the whole point I was making was that you don't know that they wouldn't have ended up at the same price point without the NEK, right? That's just your "assumption".

[Animus]

Fine. But the whole point I was making was that you don't know that they wouldn't have ended up at the same price point without the NEK, right? That's just your "assumption".


hmmmm pretty much all upgrades I have done with Steinberg are have usually been consisten--either Cubase or Nuendo. The Nuendo 4 upgrade was markedly higher than normal. In this was not inflation as the Cubase 4 upgrade was the same price.

Like I said I have no problem with NEK in concept. My problem with it in SEQ4 is that they cannibalized features we already had. If the features in the N% NEK are all new than that is fine.

[JOGA]

.........The Nuendo 4 upgrade was markedly higher than normal.

Hi Animus! You are right, the nuendo 4 upgrade was higher.

The upgrade price from 2- 3 was 299 Euros for the first couple of month
The upgrade price from n3 to n4+NEK was 399 Euros

Cheers
JOGA

Regarding the Nuendo 4 upgrade price:
http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15519&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25


hi,

actually the upgrade price from 2 to 3 was 499 Euros. there was a special price for the first two months of 299 Euros, but since march '05 the update from n2 to n3 cost 499 Euros. So the update from n3 to n4+NEK at 399 Euros is actually 100 Euros less than the last update. and the update to n4 without nek is 249 Euros, around half the n2 to n3 update. (those prices are/were all suggested retail price in euros, by the way, so they vary/varied regionally).

cheers,

angus

[h4nc0]

I think I am selling my copy of Nuendo and move to Cubase. I just see no point in wasting more money with this bullshit.

[Softy]

Knock yourself out.. Here (http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=15795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=nek&start=0)

The battle was ranging on numerous fronts at the same time, but this thread well give you the background to why I couldn't be bothered breathing another word about it.., there were a lot of people talking at each other, not too each other, with the inevitable result ...:willy_nilly:

I just read that whole thread, and am now exhausted. I see why everyone is past trying to discuss the whole NEK thing. I had read some of those posts at the time, and also lots of others in other threads on the subject. But I think I now have a better picture of the scale of the past debate.

Any way you look at it, the idea of the NEK has turned out to be a big enough fiasco in a marketing sense, that it would be hard to justify it from a business point of view. Even if you thought as I did (and still do), that it was no big deal.

I'm still shaking my head in wonder at how many ways the perceptions of different people can pull an argument in so many different directions while still talking about a single thing, or at least closely overlapping things.

It may just be a function of my limited capacity for understanding everyone's positions simultaneously, but it seems to me that if Steinberg were to offer the NEK for the same cost whether it were purchased at the same time as Nuendo, or at ANY later time, there wouldn't be any strong argument against it. I must be missing something. Surely that can't be the basis for all the heated argument that has gone on over the subject.

Maybe after I recover from having just read that thread, I'll go back to the one we had here recently (in which my own ass was handed to me on a platter, for having missed some key points), and see if I can figure out whether or not there's something I'm forgetting that would still constitute "having to buy again something already paid for."

[Animus]

Hi Softy,

Like i have said I won't have a problem paying for NEK version 5 at all as long as it has new content in it and not cannibalized features. I think the NEK is a dumb idea overall but I could tolerate it in that case.

[Softy]

http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12876&highlight=

wow that was longer ago than I thought. 2006. How time flies.

That's interesting, but with 146 total votes, not much of a statistical sampling. It would be very interesting to know how many licenses of Nuendo and Cubase are in use, by whom and for what, wouldn't it?

[Animus]

That's interesting, but with 146 total votes, not much of a statistical sampling. It would be very interesting to know how many licenses of Nuendo and Cubase are in use, by whom and for what, wouldn't it?

Never claimed it was scientific. :D

[Softy]

Hi Softy,

Like i have said I won't have a problem paying for NEK version 5 at all as long as it has new content in it and not cannibalized features. I think the NEK is a dumb idea overall but I could tolerate it in that case.

I'm wondering whether or not I'm getting what you mean by that. It seems to me that it would be just like the main package. To get updated NEK features (updates to MIDI stuff, etc.), you have to update the NEK, just like you'd have to update Nuendo to get the updated Nuendo features. If your perception is that the NEK is supposed to be a bunch of new stuff previously not part of Nuendo, then I can see why you'd be all up in arms about the NEK in the first place.

[Animus]

I'm wondering whether or not I'm getting what you mean by that. It seems to me that it would be just like the main package. To get updated NEK features (updates to MIDI stuff, etc.), you have to update the NEK, just like you'd have to update Nuendo to get the updated Nuendo features. If your perception is that the NEK is supposed to be a bunch of new stuff previously not part of Nuendo, then I can see why you'd be all up in arms about the NEK in the first place.


Nuendo 5 NEK will have mostly new stuff from Cubase so that's cool. NEK version 4 didn't offer anything of value or anything new so the perception was that we were paying to get back features we already had, at least for me. THey should have given the NEK free to all Nuendo 4 upgraders; that would have been the fair thing to do.

[TAFKAT]

THey should have given the NEK free to all Nuendo 4 upgraders; that would have been the fair thing to do.

That was one of the points made if I remember..

The whole NEK fiasco should only have been an option for new users IMO.

That would have made too much sense tho.. :-(

For the existing guys, if they somehow felt it needed to be "more Post" ,then they simply either ignored the functions as they had in the past, or not install the NEK..

Actually , come to think of it, scrap that, I said my piece on that thread.. :sulkoff:

[Animus]

Well the funny thing is that Fredo on that thread tried to argue that they had to do different compilers for NEK, and took extra time to do it. But, anyone who installed Nuendo 4 would know different. I installed just the regular Nuendo 4. One would think none of the NEK features wouldn't be installed without the NEK disc installer. Nope. I just had to add the license for NEK and all those NEK features showed up magically. Only thing the NEK installer did was to install the sample content. This does not free up "resources" or is truely a modular concept. Those features are just "hidden" in a more permanent way, like you could basically do by configuring the preferences as always.

[JOGA]

Well the funny thing is that Fredo on that thread tried to argue that they had to do different compilers for NEK, and took extra time to do it. But, anyone who installed Nuendo 4 would know different. I installed just the regular Nuendo 4. One would think non of the NEK features wouldn't be installed without the NEK disc installer. Nope. I just had to add the license for NEK and all those NEK features showed up magically. Only think the NEK installer did was to install the sample content. This does not free up "resources" or is truely a modular concept. Those features are just "hidden" in a more permanent way, like you could basically do by configuring the preferences as always.

Fredo is a manipulating liar.:rotfl:

JOGA

[h4nc0]

How SB has been operating and running, including the forum, just makes me doubt that they care about what users want. Maybe they do care but only about their "celebrity" users. I just don't understand how they can afford to skip fixing bugs and add shitloads of new features. I really like what I saw of the new features, but first things first. I doubt things will change, and realize posting on forums, including their own, is also waste of my time, so no more of this for me, I guess. :icon_mad:

[Softy]

Nuendo 5 NEK will have mostly new stuff from Cubase so that's cool. NEK version 4 didn't offer anything of value or anything new so the perception was that we were paying to get back features we already had, at least for me. THey should have given the NEK free to all Nuendo 4 upgraders; that would have been the fair thing to do.

I see how this "modularity" does present problems. If in order to upgrade one's Nuendo+NEK package, one must always buy the NEK, whether or not the NEK has any new features worth upgrading for, then it isn't really modularized is it? It's really just a different tier of product. It would make more sense for it to be sold as a different single box version rather than as a base product and option pack.

[Animus]

I see how this "modularity" does present problems. If in order to upgrade one's Nuendo+NEK package, one must always buy the NEK, whether or not the NEK has any new features worth upgrading for, then it isn't really modularized is it? It's really just a different tier of product. It would make more sense for it to be sold as a different single box version rather than as a base product and option pack.

exactly. What if I don't want any of the newer NEK features but want to upgrade to Nuendo 5 but keep the NEK I already have. You are getting it Softy. There's hope still. :D

[Softy]

exactly. What if I don't want any of the newer NEK features but want to upgrade to Nuendo 5 but keep the NEK I already have. You are getting it Softy. There's hope still. :D

Well the argument could certainly be made that by introducing NEK-like modularity, Steinberg is implying that such flexible updating would be available. But (correct me if I'm wrong) that isn't the argument you've been making is it? Maybe it is, and I've just been too dense to see your point.

But I still don't see how you'd be better off had there been no NEK in the first place (which IS I think, the argument you've been making). If there were only a single Nuendo package (with what amounts to the NEK included), then you'd still have to pay to upgrade the whole works every time whether anything in the "NEK" part of Nuendo had new features or not. The only difference in doing it the way they're doing it is that you have the option to buy Nuendo without the NEK, and you have the option to switch to the NEK-less version at each product version update.

[TAFKAT]

Here we go again.. :sleeping:

[Softy]

Here we go again.. :sleeping:

Sorry TAFKAT, I just don't see it. Perhaps it's just beyond my comprehension, eh?

[TAFKAT]

Hey Mate,

I never infered that its beyond your comprehension , my stand was quite clear on that thread. I only made 3 posts, and stayed out of the way for the most part as it was a waste of time IMO.

I am only commenting on the fact that its going to go around in circles again..

To me it was never about the money, it was about the approach that didn't make any sense, still doesn't and never will.., YMMV

To me a product line should have a tiered scaling of features from top to bottom, Flagship being exactly that, as is the case with every other DAW application on the market. This is not the MO being offered here, this whole idea that removing features makes the flagship application more suited to a specific area more so than the previous I find insulting , as do the vast majority of the clients I have spoken to about it.., thats all, carry on..

Over and out... :D

[Audiocave]

I didn't know Nuendo didn't come with a neck. That could make it hard to look sideways.

:rotfl:

Honestly though... Steiny would probably serve themselves well by posting an ongoing "status of" list.

NEK: Yes. Here to stay.
Multitrack Warp: On the board as a possibility, no timeline.

Etc, etc. So these thing would just get discussed once and end.

[Softy]

Hey Mate,

I never infered that its beyond your comprehension , my stand was quite clear on that thread. I only made 3 posts, and stayed out of the way for the most part as it was a waste of time IMO.

I am only commenting on the fact that its going to go around in circles again..

To me it was never about the money, it was about the approach that didn't make any sense, still doesn't and never will.., YMMV

To me a product line should have a tiered scaling of features from top to bottom, Flagship being exactly that, as is the case with every other DAW application on the market. This is not the MO being offered here, this whole idea that removing features makes the flagship application more suited to a specific area more so than the previous I find insulting , as do the vast majority of the clients I have spoken to about it.., thats all, carry on..

Over and out... :D

I didn't mean to imply that YOU thought it was beyond my comprehension. I think it may be (beyond my comprehension) though, as I still find it impossible to understand how splitting a product into two pieces and selling one as an option is any big deal. And I don't care to hear any arguments about it maybe costing more at the same time, because that's a separate issue.

I don't think the approach makes any sense either. But I also don't see that as being worthy of all the fuss that's been made over it.

I've already voiced my opinion that the product line should be tiered in a manner similar to what you described. That's not what we're talking about here.

I think these most recent posts have helped me understand why people have these perceptions. But unless I'm missing something crucial (and yes it could just be beyond my comprehension), it all boils down to practically nothing in my view.

[TAFKAT]

:willy_nilly:

[Animus]

:box:
I didn't mean to imply that YOU thought it was beyond my comprehension. I think it may be (beyond my comprehension) though, as I still find it impossible to understand how splitting a product into two pieces and selling one as an option is any big deal. And I don't care to hear any arguments about it maybe costing more at the same time, because that's a separate issue.

I don't think the approach makes any sense either. But I also don't see that as being worthy of all the fuss that's been made over it.

I've already voiced my opinion that the product line should be tiered in a manner similar to what you described. That's not what we're talking about here.

I think these most recent posts have helped me understand why people have these perceptions. But unless I'm missing something crucial (and yes it could just be beyond my comprehension), it all boils down to practically nothing in my view.

[Softy]

I intend to stay out of the conversation from here on out, not that I ever thought this conversation would have any effect on the situation anyway.

[Animus]

:horse:

[Softy]

:horse:

Some people have too much free time.

[TAFKAT]

:tantrum:

[JOGA]

From Nuendo.com



Facts:

The upgrade price from N2 to N3 was 499€. There was a special price for the first two months of 299€, though.
The update from N3 to N4+NEK was 399€.
The update to N4 without NEK is 249€.

These prices were the suggested retail price in euros, so they vary regionally)



Fredo

Well the special price is the key issue. That is the price! Steinberg have usually given loyal users a introductory price on upgrades. They didn't do it for Nuendo 4. So for all intents and purposes the Nuendo 4 upgrade *was* more expensive.

Hi Animus!

Thanx for posting this.

Cheers

JOGA

[TAFKAT]

Hey Animus,

No matter what is said, people will find their own truth.., none more so than the entity listed above, save your breath arguing IMO.

Just for the record, here in Oz the price for the upgrade from N3 to N4+NEK was more than the previous update by $100.00 from memory , SX3 to C4 remained the same , there was no grace period offered like the previous version.

The price of the upgrade proportionally to the retail price was a lot higher tho, as the application had taken a price hit at the time, its crept back up recently due to the dollar fluctuations . also there have been periods where the RRP of the applications were rediculously higher than the O.S pricing once converted to local currancy, but that has been better the last 3 years or so.

My issue has never been the pricing, its the continued insistence of facts that it wasn't more expensive , or the lack of the grace period for those bleeding edge types who were stepping up to do the Real World BETA testing , but in the end, what does it matter. Steinberg will charge what they charge, and we will continue to find our own truth.. SOSO© - its Groundhog Day guys..

I still have no idea what the C5 update will be worth locally or the new retails, but I'll check in today and post the details here, I'll be really interested how it compares.