What video codec's work or don't work.

[LEX]

What video codec's are working?

Since Decklink has said this:



Support for different codecs is dependent on the application itself. If the
application works with the Intensity card, then technically any codec that
the application supports should output via the card.

and

The reason that H.264 doesn't play out will be a software problem. It's
difficult to tell exactly where it may be going wrong, as we don't have
access to Nuendo software, as it isn't a program that we fully support.

So, is H264 working? What works and doesn't work.

We all know the wonderful PJpeg works in all its grainy glory.

So let's talk openly, without restriction and argument, about the REALITY of Decklink, codecs and Cubendo.
Steinberg has been less than clear about this.

LEX

[psvennevig]

h.264 is working here, but not jvt/avc. There's also (sadly) different h.264 ids.
I got one file that worked and another from another client that didn't work.

The next Q, will you spot to h.264? I would not if it was a feature film etc. Maybe for a quick tv-commercial voice where we only had a few minutes for the job.

Video is still a jungle with Nuendo. If you stay at a couple of formats it works good. I'm really excite to see what can change with video in N5.
Especially now that PT8 is out, and have a much better video engine compared to earlier.

P

[psvennevig]

Just another note.

Video is still limited with PT8, but they tell us what formats they support.
What I miss most from the video engine in N4 is that Steinberg steps up and tells us what formats are supported.

P

[LEX]

Just another note.

Video is still limited with PT8, but they tell us what formats they support.
What I miss most from the video engine in N4 is that Steinberg steps up and tells us what formats are supported.

P
Video is not nearly as limited in PT as it is in Nuendo. I have yet to find a codec that doesn't work.


And in PT8 satellite, it will play anything the computer can handle. If there are codecs it can't play, they are far and few between.

The fact that SB is so reluctant to mention what can be played and what can't is a problem.

It is either they don't know, or if they tell you the list is so small it is embarrassing.
I highly doubt they have even bothered testing.

LEX

[dcwave]

The next Q, will you spot to h.264? I would not if it was a feature film etc. Maybe for a quick tv-commercial voice where we only had a few minutes for the job.


P

Can you elaborate? What makes h.264 not suitable for feature film work? I am still learning the "why" behind some of the post workflow as well as technical things to be aware of.

I just finished dialogue edits a couple of weeks ago for a 90 minute indie film and ran h.264 without issues - what should I be paying attention to in order to make sure I am not doing something with that codec that I shouldn't?

Thanks

[LEX]

Can you elaborate? What makes h.264 not suitable for feature film work? I am still learning the "why" behind some of the post workflow as well as technical things to be aware of.

I just finished dialogue edits a couple of weeks ago for a 90 minute indie film and ran h.264 without issues - what should I be paying attention to in order to make sure I am not doing something with that codec that I shouldn't?

Thanks

2nd that. I know alot of people who are running H264 as well.

And, we are running Apples ProRes here, directly out of PT, DVI to the Projector without issue.

Granted the file sizes are huge, but the picture looks great and is about 25-30 percent less CPU hit.

H264 seems to be pretty much the standard here is hollywood AFAIK.

PT runs H264 without issue as well. It all depends on the computer.

LEX

[dcwave]

I have actually found that h264 is about the same CPU hit as PJpeg at 75%, so when I get files with it I don't even bother re-rendering. Most of the stuff I work on is coming out of Seatle, Vegas, and Salt Lake and the standard seems to be h264.

[Sam]

I am running ProRes HQ @ 1920x1080 straight off the N4 timeline out decklink HD Extreme to my HD monitor. Works a treat - I am settled on that now and get allo my stuff delivered in ProRes. Hardly a CPU hit, and seems to scrub and work generally very well. I have had many problems with h.264 most of the time a file will just not play out decklink and N4's response turns to mush :(

[leggy]

I've never used the ProRes format. So how do you make a film with it - is that a codec that QT Pro installs? Any problems getting editors to use it? And the advantages are better picture quality than mjpeg right?


Rob

[psvennevig]

Can you elaborate? What makes h.264 not suitable for feature film work? I am still learning the "why" behind some of the post workflow as well as technical things to be aware of.

I just finished dialogue edits a couple of weeks ago for a 90 minute indie film and ran h.264 without issues - what should I be paying attention to in order to make sure I am not doing something with that codec that I shouldn't?

Thanks
h.264 is also becoming the standard delivery from editors here in europe.
But, imho it has lousy frame sync, and if you have to do sound edits that is very precise, then you can miss. For instance if its a dialogue heavy feature and many of the pictures are close framed you might have problems. h.264 is of course better than mpeg2 at this, but Prores, that's another matter. A format made just for such editing. Stunning picture quality and good/great frame sync.

My 2 cent (better make it 3 these days of economic crisis).

/Pål

[Sam]

I wont use codecs which are so heavily i-frame based like h.264 as I have found the sync to be a bit mushy sometimes dependent on the machine and the program material being encoded.

The CPU hit of more solid editing based formats such as ProRes and PJPEG is much less too - they have a much higher Data Rate, but less CPU work to unpack the pixels!

Rob,

ProRes is a standard Apple Codec installed with FCP (encoder) but the decoder side is installed with plain old QT player - so you can get editors to make em no worries, but you may need some extra software to make them yourself depending on what you have already...

Hope this helps

Sam

[LEX]

Sam knows this, but I thought I would share here.

Here is the setup:
Pro Tools HD, Dual DVI G5 (Radeon 9600 Pro), DVI direct to Panasonic DNU10000 (10k digital projector), Room size 60x42+ (est.) Anyway, it isn't an LCD. Large THX screen.

While H264 maybe the standard, it is the worst IMO.

In comparison, PJPEG is the worst for color and the blacks are unusable. When blown up, you can really see how poor PJEPG is. CPU hit is comparable to H264 as well, even at 75 percent.

PJPEG - not worth it.

H264 - Looks good, but not great. CPU hit is crazy. It is great the file sizes though.
You can put a whole movie on a DVD.

ProRes and ProRes HQ - Pro Res decode is standard with QT, and encode comes with QT Pro.
If you have MPEG Streamclip, you can encode to ProRes.

ProRes looks better than Either and the CPU hit is 25 percent less.
The downside is the file size. At full res, it is about 1 gig per minute.

You can set the quality to 50 percent. The difference is little, and the size is smaller. Perfect as a work print.

Here is a discovery I made. It was very interesting.

I received reels as DV NTSC, 720x480. I made the video window bigger, and the grain started to come out.
Looked horrible on my LCD monitor.

So I put it in MPEG Streamclip and converted it to ProRes Standard, 50 percent, 720x480, no interlace.
Took 15 minutes to convert 21 minute reel.

The difference was amazing. 50 percent better looking.
I put the picture in Pt on the stage and did an A/B comparison, and it was very clear.
ProRes was the way to go.

Lastly, if you have the time, you could request H264, for smaller size delivery and MPEG streamclip it to ProRes, whatever Res you want.

LEX

[dcwave]

Good info! Thanks.
It looks like you can only encode to ProRes from FCP. Or does anyone know of a Windows encoder for ProRes?

[LEX]

Good info! Thanks.
It looks like you can only encode to ProRes from FCP. Or does anyone know of a Windows encoder for ProRes?

Not true.

I encode to ProRes from MPEG Streamclip.

You need to have QT Pro though.

www.squared5.com.
Works and is free.

LEX

[LEX]

Oh, I am going to try to do a series of video codec tests, once again.

I am going to try to figure out what codec's truncate in Nuendo and which ones don't.

LEX

[dcwave]

Not true.

I encode to ProRes from MPEG Streamclip.

You need to have QT Pro though.

www.squared5.com (http://www.squared5.com).
Works and is free.

LEX

Okay - I downloaded Streamclip. I see nothing in the options for ProRes and I have QT Pro. What am I missing? :confused:

[LEX]

Okay - I downloaded Streamclip. I see nothing in the options for ProRes and I have QT Pro. What am I missing? :confused:

You have to be on QT Pro 7.5.5.

LEX

[psvennevig]

Thanks for the Streamclip tip Lex..

/P

[dcwave]

You have to be on QT Pro 7.5.5.

LEX

I am, updated to it at the same time I added Streamclip.

When I use Streamclip the only options for codecs are what I normally see from within QT, or Vegas. I assume it would be under the Export To QuickTime options, correct?

THanks

[LEX]

I just looked it up.

There doesn't seem to be a way to do it without FCP installed, and there is no way to do it on PC.

Sorry.

If you have a MAC, you might look into FC express and see if it with do it.

Kind of a bummer. I never thought about it since i have FC Studio, and always did it on my MAC's.

LEX

[dcwave]

Well, no worries. Maybe someone in the next few months will make a Windows version.

[LEX]

Well, no worries. Maybe someone in the next few months will make a Windows version.

Well, you'd have to wait for Apple then, since it is their codec.

I doubt they have plans for that, but maybe they will.

Worst case, pick up an old G4. They are selling for about 300 bucks, get FC express and then convert.

In my experience, it is always good to have atleast 1 MAC around, if not 4.

LEX

[Daryl]

LEX, is it possible to post a short clip with both H264 and ProRes, so that we can and see the difference for ourselves?

D

[LEX]

LEX, is it possible to post a short clip with both H264 and ProRes, so that we can and see the difference for ourselves?

D

The biggest difference you are going to see is through the projection.

It is really hard to tell the difference on an LCD monitor at least on my monitor. Maybe a 50 inch plasma might be different.
Where?

LEX

[Daryl]

The biggest difference you are going to see is through the projection.

It is really hard to tell the difference on an LCD monitor at least on my monitor. Maybe a 50 inch plasma might be different.
Where?

LEX
I'm working with a 40" LCD TV. Is it possible to upload files to this forum, or mailbigfile or anything like that?

D

[dcwave]

Well, you'd have to wait for Apple then, since it is their codec.

I doubt they have plans for that, but maybe they will.

Worst case, pick up an old G4. They are selling for about 300 bucks, get FC express and then convert.

In my experience, it is always good to have atleast 1 MAC around, if not 4.

LEX

I have an old fishbowl... err, I mean iMac somewhere.

[LEX]

I have an old fishbowl... err, I mean iMac somewhere.

Just remember, the slower CPU, the longer the encoding is going to take.

LEX

[dcwave]

Just remember, the slower CPU, the longer the encoding is going to take.

LEX

Not to mention I would have to pry it from my 12 yo son's hands. He uses it in his "studio" (casio keyboard, drums and the iMAC).

[Sam]

ProRes is a standard Apple Codec installed with FCP (encoder)

ahhh, why is it that no-one ever listens to the kid up the back! :D

I know what you mean LEX. FCP is as standard on any of my MAC's as OSX is :P - its easy to forget the functionality outside of the app itself that FCP adds to a machine!

[leggy]

Sam and LEX - thanks for the tips. This is great info and really useful, practical stuff. I'm away on holiday at the moment (sadly still checking the forums when the wife's not looking......:rolleyes:) but I'll do some digging myself when I get back.


Rob

[LEX]

No problem. That is why this forum is here.

Together, we can collect the necessary info, and maybe Animus can put it in the tips and tricks section so it can always be referenced without having to search or go through pages of posts.

Keep collecting and reporting.

LEX

[DogandPony]

Thanks for the info regarding ProRes, I too have been less than satisfied with PhotoJpeg. Another question regarding codecs, for those of us who don't yet have Final Cut to render a ProRes, any suggestion as to a codec that looks better than PJpeg and works with Nuendo on Mac? I tried MJpeg, not much difference to the eye; H264 works as long as the session is small (at least it did in 4.1, haven't tried it in 4.2), Sorenson files tend to be huge. Thoughts? john.

[StevenG]

For the PC crowd (inc. me), here is the link to the PC codec for decoding ProRes: ProResPC (http://support.apple.com/downloads/Apple_ProRes_QuickTime_Decoder_1_0_for_Windows)

[leggy]

I have QT Pro installed on my Mac but I can't see any Pro Res output options from MpegStreamclip. I presume you go to export quicktime and the the Pro Res codec is one of the options there? Does this mean that I need the full version of FC to get this codec then? Hope not.


Rob

[leggy]

Bit more info here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/971679

So looks like you need Final Cut Studio. Hmm.. might have to borrow the discs from a friend to install the codec as is described in that article.


Rob

[Sam]

Do it if you can Rob, I have been using ProRes now for around 6 months exclusively and I am a happy camper....

[leggy]

Hey Sam,

Will do what I need to to get this codec installed. Shame it isn't more easily available though.

Cheers,


Rob