Bailouts, Bailouts...

[LEX]

Since the Porn industry is asking for a 5 billion dollar bailout due to "lagging sales", I think there is another bailout needed.

Cubendo.com bailout.

2 Billion Dollars should be enough.

LEX

[Sam]

yep I would be happy to take only a 10m cut of that LEX. I am a generous kind of guy I know, I know. Lemme know when it rocks up!

[Animus]

I thought that was hilarious. It was obvious it was a tongue in cheek commentary on the sad state of affairs in the US. Everybody and their mother wants a handout. Pathetic. Let's not talk about all the crooks in Washington. The fleecing of America.

[shanabit]

I thought that was hilarious. It was obvious it was a tongue in cheek commentary on the sad state of affairs in the US. Everybody and their mother wants a handout. Pathetic. Let's not talk about all the crooks in Washington. The fleecing of America.

My handout is small, only $2250, thats what my engine in the car just cost me
;)
We are headed on a hard road to socialism fellas.

[MattiasNYC]

My handout is small, only $2250, thats what my engine in the car just cost me
;)
We are headed on a hard road to socialism fellas.

Sorry for ripping on you today (;)) shanabit, but this has absolutely nothing to do with Socialism. If anything, it is the road to Fascism.

And that said I'll reiterate that Capitalism is bullshit and that Fascism is worse.

[kdm]

Agreed. Bailouts are like giving a commercial fisherman who just lost his boat in a poker match a free year's supply of fish to sell at will by cutting into every other fisherman's catch.

And the idea of making tax cuts, handing out yet more rebates, and spending like there's no tomorrow (new infrastructure plan, health care, civilian security force, etc) is only going to sink the national debt into the 2-3 Trillion range. Does anyone in Washington understand economics?

Maybe, just maybe, we've been overspending for the past 10 years and this economic downturn (which is really all it is), is equilibrium?

Yep, everyone wants everything for free. We'll pay for it eventually though, whether higher taxes for government sponsored industries, health care, etc, or when China et al come calling in our debt.

Maybe we should get the credit and mortgage industries to account for every penny, and when it will be paid back before another dime leaves Washington.

m2 - capitalism as a concept isn't crap, it's just open to greed and abuse because people have control over their own business actions to a large extent. Anything that tries to manage that abuse is just one step closer to fascism, etc. Socialism is simply the concept of spreading the wealth and/or resources which is one step away from communism if abused. There is a cycle of government/social structure that most civilizations move around, though usually never all the way.

[MattiasNYC]

Agreed. Bailouts are like giving a commercial fisherman who just lost his boat in a poker match a free year's supply of fish to sell at will by cutting into every other fisherman's catch.

Actually, I think it's much worse than that....


Maybe, just maybe, we've been overspending for the past 10 years and this economic downturn (which is really all it is), is equilibrium?

"Overspending" is one way of phrasing it. The way I understand it the "expansion" of the economy is actually exactly that, in a sense; more money available in the economy. Only problem is that the money is created out of nothing, with a debt (interest) attached to it. So when the economy grows by a specific amount (let's call that amount 100%) there is interest attached to it. Equilibrium would be that when 100% is paid back we're back to where we started. But if the loan is at 5% interest, there's now a deficit on the total economy of 5% of that loan (debt). And it's my understanding that in order to pay back those 5% that previously didn't exist at all, a new loan has to be taken. In a sense kind'a like a giant Ponzi scheme. It's bullshit.


Yep, everyone wants everything for free. We'll pay for it eventually though, whether higher taxes for government sponsored industries, health care, etc, or when China et al come calling in our debt.

I think people will pay for it twice! 1) Through taxes to pay for bailouts, and 2) Through loosing property that's been foreclosed.


Maybe we should get the credit and mortgage industries to account for every penny, and when it will be paid back before another dime leaves Washington.

I think they should be allowed to fail. If you want to play Capitalism then allow companies and industries to fail. That is supposed to be the way of "survival-of-the-fittest-Capitalism". The way to allocate resources efficiently and justly, and to "progress" technology and business etc.... Let them fail.

The US has the worst kind of economy there is: One where the general population gets to play Capitalism with all it's negative effects, but where the large companies with über-rich owners get bailouts when their business skills fail, which the taxpayers get to pony up for.... But it's really pretty simple; just look at all those politicians in power and who their friends and donors are... who do they really represent?

It's bullshit.

[kdm]

I couldn't have said it better m2. Failure is part of motivation for evaluating risk, and the cost of greed, bad decisions, etc. Without that, we are headed to disaster, with massive corruption likely along the way.

Imho, the mortgage/credit bailout was the biggest scam in world history: CEOs get $1.4B in *bonuses* (a bonus, for failing... good grief); then after the first 750B, the treasury cuts a check for another 800B with no congressional/government discussion or approval; Citigroup raises interest rates on credit cards - almost double (from which they will make a killing); and the CEOs/companies refuse to account for where the money went. Doesn't take much adding 2 and 2 there....

My fishing illustration was overly simplistic for certain. In reality, I think we are seeing the end of our capitalistic economy, and democratic basis for our government as well, but not heading for an improved version - rather a reactionary, ill-conceived deterioration.

The economy here is based on trust that the people will act with integrity and honesty, which of course is bound to fail in some cases of course. And of course the reality is, people will never on the whole act for the benefit of the whole, so we end up mandating or legislating it - which leads to other socialistic, or even communistic or fascist authoritarian governments, which is worse. You can't legislate honesty and integrity.

Freedom means you are and should be free to fail and have to take responsibility for it, not just choose your own path, but much of our country has forgotten that.

The corporate bailouts have set an extremely bad precedent that will haunt us for decades to come, if they don't end up dragging us down the drain.

[shanabit]

Sorry for ripping on you today (;)) shanabit, but this has absolutely nothing to do with Socialism. If anything, it is the road to Fascism.

And that said I'll reiterate that Capitalism is bullshit and that Fascism is worse.

LOL

Were cool. I still want to call you M1, ah the Korg of yesteryear

[shanabit]

The US has the worst kind of economy there is: One where the general population gets to play Capitalism with all it's negative effects, but where the large companies with über-rich owners get bailouts when their business skills fail, which the taxpayers get to pony up for.... But it's really pretty simple; just look at all those politicians in power and who their friends and donors are... who do they really represent?

It's bullshit.

You hit it right on the head bro, so true;)

[kdm]

I still want to call you M1, ah the Korg of yesteryear

heh - that's what I think of when I see m2 as well. I have an M3 sitting in front of me (aka m2+1 ;-), and a dead M1R in the equipment room.

m2 - you sure you don't work for Korg? ;-)

[MattiasNYC]

Shit, someone broke the code! I may as well make it official:

Korg M1.

M2= 2 times 1 (cause it's twice m1, right), or two ones, i.e 11. 11th letter is "k".
M= letter # 13, plus 2 (m2)=15=letter "o"
M+G=20 (13+7) minus 2 (m2) = 18 = letter "r"
M= letter # 13, divided by two (m2) is 6.5 which is normally rounded off to 7, letter # "g"

I've got to find a less obvious encryption scheme!......

[Captain Caveman]

Put simply, the people who caused the problem are getting bailed out whereas the people and businesses that are going to suffer because of these guys are not.

It's time to withdraw the savings to actually make these guys suffer, they aren't lending any money at reasonable rates compared to savings interest anyway.

[Captain Caveman]

Actually, to lead on from my last post, my dad worked for IBM back in the day. They installed the first ATM machines in Scotland for RBOS and the R&D, installation and maintenance of the network was paid for with the money the banks could leverage for borrowing from wages left in accounts in the first year.

The way it works is that because the banks only have to have 10% of all money in actual physical deposits, for every £1000 you leave in a bank account, they can lend out £9000 (or don't have to borrow as much to get the 10%).

So (eg) while they pay 4% on £1000 of your savings, they charge 7% on £9000 of loans from your savings..... making 59% (before costs, not including loan arrangement fees) p.a. using these figures.

Surely if you f-ck up a cash cow like that by leveraging and speculating you don't deserve to be bailed out. And now that we can see that the benefits of the bail outs are not being passed onto the people and businesses they were designed to help it is time for more drastic action.

No?

[Animus]

10 to 1 leveraging is cool. The fuckers that helped cause this whole mess were leveraging something like 30:1.

[MattiasNYC]

10 to 1 leveraging is cool. The fuckers that helped cause this whole mess were leveraging something like 30:1.

Is it really though? On that we've got interest to pay; where is it supposed to come from?

Suppose you have an economy that totals 1.000.000. That is 100%. Now say a bank conjures into existence another 1.000 based on fractional lending. So now our economy has grown to 1.001.000. The interest on these 1.000 is 70, as an example. Whomever borrowed the 1.000 will pay it back, effectively ceasing those 1.000 to exist, and we're almost back to 1.000.000, except for the interest owed on money that no longer exists; 70. Where are these supposed to come from? Our economy is now "in debt" of 70, right? We've got a $70 deficit on the entire economy.

Isn't it true that to cover this debt (for creating money out of nothing; growing the economy temporarily) we need to borrow more money?

1) total economy is 1.000.000

2) a loan is made and money is created out of thin air. the economy grows by 1000 with an interest as an additional debt to be repaid.

total economy: 1.001.000
total debt: 1.000 (loan) + 70 (interest) = 1.070

3) when it is time to pay back, other loans will cover this interest. So supposing another 1000 loan the original can now be paid back with interest:

incoming economy: 1.001.000 ("previous" level)
new loan: +1.000
previous debt repaid: -1.070

new debt: 1.070
new total economy: 1.000.930

No matter what you do you're fucked. The expanded economy is based on debt. It is a natural drain on the economy as soon as you're lending less. The end result when the debt cannot be paid is foreclosure, or, in other words, consolidation of wealth.

Or am I misunderstanding things here.

[Animus]

Well at the point we really need to talk about the Federal Reserve system.

[MattiasNYC]

Absolutely. Another POS.

[TAFKAT]

You guys have watched Zeitgeist : Addendum (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/) I take it, if not, worth a look see, goes into great detail of the Federal Reserve , the fractional banking scam.., and the aftermath we are now enduring.. :-(

[Captain Caveman]

Just watched that Vin, thanks for the link. :icon30:

It really does beggar belief the stuff that goes on in the world and I can't believe people still don't link 911 with paving the way for invasion of Iraq. The truth is only truth if it is the line broadcast by Rupert Murdoch after all.

:icon_rolleyes:

[D]

10 to 1 leveraging is cool. The fuckers that helped cause this whole mess were leveraging something like 30:1.

It's actually 33:1 as a result of the change in the Net Capital Rule. Lobbied for by Wall Street investment banks, the Net Capital rule used to be 15:1. Some of these people should be in jail, like Hank Paulson and Bernie Madoff.

[MattiasNYC]

I also recommend "money as debt", which also can be found on youtube. It's an animation that talks about the banking systems evolution ending up with the fractional reserve system. Worth a see I think...

[Captain Caveman]

I also recommend "money as debt", which also can be found on youtube. It's an animation that talks about the banking systems evolution ending up with the fractional reserve system. Worth a see I think...

Yup, definately worth watching. Cheers for the link. :)

Here's the link to googlevideo if anyone wants have a peek....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

[TAFKAT]

Just watched that Vin, thanks for the link. :icon30:

It really does beggar belief the stuff that goes on in the world and I can't believe people still don't link 911 with paving the way for invasion of Iraq. The truth is only truth if it is the line broadcast by Rupert Murdoch after all.

:icon_rolleyes:

Hey Cap,

Cool, thought you would enjoy it.. :-)

If you didn't manage to catch the first one as well which is on the same site , that is worth watching as well. 3 parts , 1: Comparative Religion, 2 : 911, and 3: a taster on the Federal Reserve and the banking system, that was expanded in Addendum..

When I first stumbled on this, I remember the inevitable fallout from some of the religious sector claiming that part 1 had no foundation in truth, but not one could come up with any historical evidence outside of the NT.. :eusa_think:

[Captain Caveman]

FFS what are you trying to do to me Vin!! :)

I've just watched that film and I have to say there were many, many jaw-dropping moments in there. Grandpappy Bush a Nazi money-launderer!!! All the wars of the 20th century set up with 911 type incidents!!!

I knew a lot of the religion stuff already, but again it's great to have it all laid out there.

Cheers mate, marvellous!

:icon_cool:

[Animus]

This is required viewing too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ueEfRXZCVA&feature=related

THere's several parts to this.

[Captain Caveman]

Cheers, I'll watch that tomorrow.... I found it on Google Video....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

Vive la revolution!

:)

[Softy]

I think maybe you guys should start a new category like "Politics/Economics" to help those of us who have a hard time containing ourselves, to avoid seeing such posts as these.
:D

[kdm]

Softy - that's probably a good idea to separate the more potentially volatile topics from the lighter, or more humorous, Speakeasy topics. Gotta have a place to get away from the audio world without getting our feathers ruffled in the process. :-)

[Animus]

That was the idea for Thunderdome (it does day political/religious debates in the description). Pretty much any potentially volatile topic should go in there.