CLASP- Bridging the Digital and Analog World.. ?

[TAFKAT]

I was listening in on the Mixerman Radio Show (http://thewombforums.com/radio/NewRadios/mmrs/index.php) today when the boys were talking about this CLASP device which allows you to record directly to your DAW via a loop running off your tape machine.., still trying to get my head around it..

Check out the website Here (http://www.endlessanalog.com/home)

Quick edit, found these vids that will explain the concept more clearly..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1I1cMaEmBA&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACuNrXy5Ng&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf2RHNi_4Bg&feature=related

What do you guys think ?

[Michael Tibes]

Kinda great, but what's the price? If I was going to get into this I'd check whether it was probably cheaper and more effective to get more inputs for the daw and record the tape return as well as the original signal directly, so monitoring would be done as usual and the tape return would be recorded as well, but not monitored at first. Fixing the delay the tape introduces is just a matter of measuring the delay and inserting voxengos free latency compensation plugin into the input channels and everything would be pretty much in sync on playback (leaving tape speed variations as the only variable, which this system won't compensate either as far as I understand). This method would also have the advantage that one couldn't lose a recording because of tape running out (it might happen when people jam, which still might happen even nowadays). All you'd lose would be the taped version, but you'd still have the direct digital one. I'd love to get into this if people were paying for it, otherwise it seems like too much effort unfortunately. Don't underestimate tape machine maintenance, there used to be full time techs to take care of this in the old days...

Anyway, do they still make tapes after all and how much does it cost? I didn't follow up the last years, there's probably one company left? You'd definitely need some tapes as they do wear out after some time and NOS might long be sold out or falling apart.

Michael

[LEX]

They don't make the tape anymore. That ended in 2004/5. So you might be able to pickup some tape on eBay, but there is little to go around.

LEX

[MattiasNYC]

I know what you're talking about Lex, but I thought some company picked it up again!?

As for CLASP, I wonder if it's worth it. I think we have excellent tools other than tape that can give us great sounding tracks, so I'm just wondering if the investment and "bother" is really worth it.....

[Endless Analog]

Hello LEX,

Actually there are two companies making great sounding tape. ATR Magnetics and RMGI.

TAFKAT, Thanks for sharing CLASP with the forum. Unfortunately the videos are out dated they are over 2 years old and since then CLASP has evolved into a much more sophisticated system.

There are more updated videos on our website and on www.vintageking.com

Peace

EA

[TerryG]

Since you can't really get the sound of tape (frequency response, wow & flutter, noise = "analog sound") without having one head lay it on and a second head read it off, and a 2' reel of 24 track tape only provides 1/16" per track of the magnetic medium to "paint the signal", can't I just use 24 Echoplex's that provide a full 1/4" of tape to each track... and loop indefinitely? :icon_razz:

OK, I've had my fun...
This looks genuine, but how much money do you really want to invest on a continual basis to replicate Tape?

It's a very cool thing for the sake of doing it, and I admire the technology and thought involved, but is it musically valuable in any quantifiable bang-for-the-buck ratio? That's the question...

[LEX]

Still, 300 bucks for tape and at 30 ips, you are getting 15 minutes.

I know there are the vintage people out there who won't go beyond analog, but its still a dead format.

I would still print master mixes to an Ampex 1/2" machine though, but those are becoming limited as alot of them have been bought up for parts.

And in the Post world, well you just don't see tape anymore. Not even 35mm film work prints.
Everything on the stages is full HD now. Instant locate, no more mag and 10 PT systems. LOL!

LEX

[MattiasNYC]

Still, 300 bucks for tape and at 30 ips, you are getting 15 minutes.

Sure, not cheap by today's standards. But I suppose the ability to reuse the tape "easily" is an argument for CLASP. Also, the cost may not be "high" in larger productions of course, and certainly cheaper than having to keep several tapes for all the takes which would increase the cost significantly (either that or spending the time doing transfers, time, which of course = money).


I know there are the vintage people out there who won't go beyond analog, but its still a dead format.

For distribution it's dead. But the question is if CLASP and perhaps other systems will keep analog tape alive a bit longer.

I'm guessing it'll take a while before it dies out. It's the same problem as with "summing": One has to objectively and technically determine whether or not the alternatives are equal in "value", and seeing how stubborn some are without being informed it'll take a while before the format dies. But my hunch is that it's only a matter of time before digital emulations completely eradicates tape....


And in the Post world, well you just don't see tape anymore. Not even 35mm film work prints.
Everything on the stages is full HD now. Instant locate, no more mag and 10 PT systems. LOL!

LEX

Yes I agree. In Post it most certainly makes no sense to use CLASP I think.

[LEX]

Sure, not cheap by today's standards. But I suppose the ability to reuse the tape "easily" is an argument for CLASP. Also, the cost may not be "high" in larger productions of course, and certainly cheaper than having to keep several tapes for all the takes which would increase the cost significantly (either that or spending the time doing transfers, time, which of course = money).



HAve you ever reused analog tape? Sure it can be done a few times, but after so many passes the tape starts to "shed" and the quality degrades.

Some tapes that have been used over and over again you can almost see through them.

LEX

[MattiasNYC]

HAve you ever reused analog tape? Sure it can be done a few times, but after so many passes the tape starts to "shed" and the quality degrades.

Some tapes that have been used over and over again you can almost see through them.

LEX

Oh, I know, I'm just saying that for whatever amount of times you actually can reuse the tape it'll be easier than "in the old days". And in addition to that, since you're going straight through the tape deck you won't have to run the tape every time you play back to audition, or worry about which take to keep before reusing. Know what I mean?

[TerryG]

We have digital tape simulation in numerous forms to replicate any perceived positive benefit of the character of analog tape.
One must ask WHY go to the lengths required to reintroduce every negative aspect of the physical/mechanical realities involved with 24-track machines the digital age has allowed us to avoid?

This is like breathing through a motorcycle muffler and wearing an ipod listening to a recording of a 5HP Briggs and Stratton at 105dB so you can get the full sensory experience while mowing your lawn with an electric.

I'm going to invent a new plug-in... The Snark. :icon_cool:
It inserts the voice of a midget that mocks everything you're working on with random comments in 3 to 7 minute intervals.
After all, you're not a real professional until you've endured that abuse and stayed true to your vision.

Sorry, it's been a tough week. Bugchasing for Steinberg appears to be a fruitless enough endeavor by itself.

[LEX]

Bugchasing for Steinberg appears to be a fruitless enough endeavor by itself.

Has it ever been fruitful?

LEX

[Sam]

I think the plugs are ok sometimes. Nothing - NOTHING - sounds like 2inch being smAcked into by a rock band....sure then take it digital - but printng the outputs of your front end to tape is somethng no plugin can do properly IMO. I have an Otari MTR 90 and this box would work for it, question is for me - is it worth the 11k it is priced at here in Oz? Can I just always do what I have in the past and let the daw chase smpte....I only ever use tape for the meat and potatoes - this box looks like making overdubs much easier too - but 11k is exy!

[TAFKAT]

HAve you ever reused analog tape? Sure it can be done a few times, but after so many passes the tape starts to "shed" and the quality degrades.

Some tapes that have been used over and over again you can almost see through them.

LEX

Hey LEX,

Have a listen in on the Mixer Man Radio show segment, it was Ep7 part 2 or 3 from memory.

The Engineer goes into some detail about the tape usage, they got thousands of hours out of it before it was binned from memory.

There was really interesting discussion about digital transfers of files sounding different as well as CD Masters, now before you go off , have a listen to the discussion, it was entertaining to say the least... :-)

@ EA,

No problem sharing this with the guys here, we aren't exactly The Womb in regards to the love of analog , if you know what I mean, but we will get some interesting points across none the less... :-)

I'll find and watch the new vids when I get a few minutes and update the original post..

Peace

[LEX]

No, haven't listened to mixer man's show.

Maybe the glue is better now then it was. Back in the day, you'd record, wipe and then record again as there was possibility of print thru.

I stopped using analog machines in 2000. Even then, they were in limited use.

Everything I dealt with was 3348's, PT or the Euphonix R-1.

LEX

[Beat Productions]

We have digital tape simulation in numerous forms to replicate any perceived positive benefit of the character of analog tape.
One must ask WHY go to the lengths required to reintroduce every negative aspect of the physical/mechanical realities involved with 24-track machines the digital age has allowed us to avoid?

This is like breathing through a motorcycle muffler and wearing an ipod listening to a recording of a 5HP Briggs and Stratton at 105dB so you can get the full sensory experience while mowing your lawn with an electric.

I'm going to invent a new plug-in... The Snark. :icon_cool:
It inserts the voice of a midget that mocks everything you're working on with random comments in 3 to 7 minute intervals.
After all, you're not a real professional until you've endured that abuse and stayed true to your vision.

Sorry, it's been a tough week. Bugchasing for Steinberg appears to be a fruitless enough endeavor by itself.

Perfect!

[TerryG]

Just to provide some perspective, the bulk of my "recording artist" days were over 20 years ago, and I virtually lived in a studio with a pair of 24-track rooms for 5 years.
I loved every second of it. And, I loved the sound of glass tubes breathing in riffs coming from 2" tape at 30ips. I also remember the days when engineers were expected to be technicians... doing endless cleanings, head alignments, and tweaking components with their VOM's and oscilloscopes with special non-conductive screwdrivers between sessions.

If you have the luxury of affording the Clasp system and all it entails, I'm sure it's wonderful.

[LEX]

Just to provide some perspective, the bulk of my "recording artist" days were over 20 years ago, and I virtually lived in a studio with a pair of 24-track rooms for 5 years.
I loved every second of it. And, I loved the sound of glass tubes breathing in riffs coming from 2" tape at 30ips. I also remember the days when engineers were expected to be technicians... doing endless cleanings, head alignments, and tweaking components with their VOM's and oscilloscopes with special non-conductive screwdrivers between sessions.

If you have the luxury of affording the Clasp system and all it entails, I'm sure it's wonderful.

Don't forget the lap coats Engineers once wore as well.

LEX

[ROCKINROG]

http://www.mikekonopka.com/page30.html

http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=2597

FROM: http://richardhess.com/notes/
Long-term stability of different batches of Ampex 456 – a guest article by Gary Galo
Filed under: Tape Aging, reels — Gary Galo @ 3:14 pm

Here’s some info that might be useful concerning which batches of Ampex 456 are good and which have sticky shed problems.

I recently unearthed 26 brand new 10 1/2-inch reels of 456 from 8 different batches. I checked one reel from each batch by playing them back and forth at 15ips (I only played the bad reels in one direction – that was enough!). The following batches were bad:

90297, 91049, 91055, 91079 and 91149

The following were fine:

94132, 94133, 94298 and 96190

The reels that were bad did not squeal during playback, but left debris on the heads and guides that was just barely sticky, so these are obviously in the beginning stages of deterioration.

All of these were Ampex (pre-Quantegy) tapes purchased in the early 1990s. Batch 96190 have lighter grey boxes as opposed to the textured, darker grey background found on the earlier batches, and the reel labels appear to be silk screened, rather than having sticker labels. None of these reels have the old rainbow-style logo.

I would guess that the good batches will probably remain OK – they’ve had a good 17 years to go bad and would probably have done so by now if there was a problem.

For whatever it’s worth…

Gary Galo
Audio Engineer
SUNY Potsdam
…speaking for himself

[Michael Tibes]

I remember Ampex had problems with the glue formula, I remember vaguely they actually had no way to chemically verify how their mixture for the glue turned out. So it was a bit of a gamble how stable the glue was. Most of their tapes I came across during the past years were in a very bad state, I had to have the tapes of some old albums 'baked' in order to be able to play them back for transfer. Before that they would just basically choke the machine because the sticky debris 'glued' the tape to anything it 'came across' - tape transport and the heads. I heard it could even damage the heads if one wasn't careful and went into play from fast forward or so.

So I'd probably not try to go for NOS Ampex / Quantegy tapes. Actually I don't know whether BASF / Emtec had the same problem, maybe their tapes remained stable. But any old stock would be long gone anyway, wouldn't it? People said some big US studios bought anything they could get hold of when Quantegy and Emtec busted, and that was quite a while ago.

The general stability of the tapes had been very good back in the old days in terms of wear. I can't remember that we ever had a problem with worn out tapes, even after weeks of shuttling back and forth, dropping guitar solos bar by bar. That had been with Studer A820s, which were probably the most 'tape-friendly' machines ever (unless their control computer busted or the machine caught fire, which luckily hardly ever happened).

Michael

[Sam]

The tech I use for my analogue gear - who is head tech for SAE worldwide, and the cluiest guy I know with a soldering iron in his hands, did tell me once that he thought the A820 had one of if not the best transport in any machine made. Sure there were better sounding machines but he thought the build and design was very good on those machines...

[LEX]

The tech I use for my analogue gear - who is head tech for SAE worldwide, and the cluiest guy I know with a soldering iron in his hands, did tell me once that he thought the A820 had one of if not the best transport in any machine made. Sure there were better sounding machines but he thought the build and design was very good on those machines...

820's were rock solid. 827's were too. Gotta love a Studer.

LEX

[Michael Tibes]

They had the same transport, didn't they? I believe the audio electronics were the difference, the 820 had automatic alignment and therefore somewhat digitally controllable parameter where the 827 had pots, as far as I remember. Awesome pieces of gear in any case!

Michael

[LEX]

They had the same transport, didn't they? I believe the audio electronics were the difference, the 820 had automatic alignment and therefore somewhat digitally controllable parameter where the 827 had pots, as far as I remember. Awesome pieces of gear in any case!

Michael
I thought it was the other way around.

LEX

[ROCKINROG]

Yes the 820 was full automatic alignment and processor control. Both machines were the best transports ever built. Ya gotta luv the Swiss when it comes to engineering and design. ;)

[Sam]

Yup the 820 was def auto alignment.....I just would have preferred needle VU meters still....not those plasma bar/led thingies like the Never V series consoles had.....pegging VU's with needles is way more fun, but thats just me :) hehe....yep very smooth transport, a dream to lock up with DAW too FWIW.....probably because of how stable the transport is from start through to finish on a reel.....

[ROCKINROG]

Even the A80 was built like a tank. I love Studer. :icon_yes:

http://analogrules.com/Gallery/Studer

[Sam]

A80 was an awesome sounding machine, better sounding than the 820 actually (IMO)....just not as fancy :)

[colony nofi]

MCI....MCI....MCI....MCI.... (when they work, of course....)
Oh, sorry. I forgot I was living in 2010 for a moment.