N5 Media Bay bug with Play 2.0.x; MB slower than N4

[kdm]

Posted on n.com, but to avoid the inevitable "upgrade to Win7/64" to solve a problem that didn't exist in N4, I'm posting here as well.

Here are two parts to some growing concerns I have with MB in N5 vs N4 (where I never had any problems with it performance-wise):

1 - MediaBay now starts scanning as you type in a search, and like iTunes store search (which I now hate), it takes several seconds to type a single word. Not good - significantly slows down searches - I can't fathom using MB for large projects now, but had no problems in N4.

Having search initiate on "enter", not with every character makes far more sense, esp. when you have entries set lower and it has to scan with each search. I can type very fast, but MB in N5 hangs on every character as it retries the search - very poor design.

2 - Not sure yet, but I have a suspicion there are ram problems with MB now. I have it set for 300 entries just to conserve ram (if I understood the recommendations made here correctly), but with a current project, and only Play with 2 instruments, when I pulled a file from MB, ram usage went up (from about 1.9G free down to 1.6G free, which is at the boundary of the 2G limit for Nuendo/WinXP32.

Play first stopped streaming full samples (cut off the all but the buffered starts), then Play/Nuendo crashed with a memory error either reported by Play or WinXP - not one I had seen before. Play proceeded to forget instruments loaded when the project reloaded the next time. This happened a couple of times, and the only common denominator seemed to be that I had opened MB just before. While this could be partly Play's fault, MB simply feels like a sloth now, and it definitely is eating up more ram even with just 300 entries shown. I had 10,000 in N4 and didn't have this ram usage from MB, but I'll have to test to quantify that - just going on similar workflows that are no longer possible with N5. I'll test it with more entries allowed to see if that helps, and what impact that has on memory - not expecting an improvement though.

After these crashes, I worked the rest of the day without opening MB and had problems with Play or Ram - stayed at 1.8G free.

[LEX]

Posted on n.com, but to avoid the inevitable "upgrade to Win7/64" to solve a problem that didn't exist in N4, I'm posting here as well.

Here are two parts to some growing concerns I have with MB in N5 vs N4 (where I never had any problems with it performance-wise):

1 - MediaBay now starts scanning as you type in a search, and like iTunes store search (which I now hate), it takes several seconds to type a single word. Not good - significantly slows down searches - I can't fathom using MB for large projects now, but had no problems in N4.

Having search initiate on "enter", not with every character makes far more sense, esp. when you have entries set lower and it has to scan with each search. I can type very fast, but MB in N5 hangs on every character as it retries the search - very poor design.

2 - Not sure yet, but I have a suspicion there are ram problems with MB now. I have it set for 300 entries just to conserve ram (if I understood the recommendations made here correctly), but with a current project, and only Play with 2 instruments, when I pulled a file from MB, ram usage went up (from about 1.9G free down to 1.6G free, which is at the boundary of the 2G limit for Nuendo/WinXP32.

Play first stopped streaming full samples (cut off the all but the buffered starts), then Play/Nuendo crashed with a memory error either reported by Play or WinXP - not one I had seen before. Play proceeded to forget instruments loaded when the project reloaded the next time. This happened a couple of times, and the only common denominator seemed to be that I had opened MB just before. While this could be partly Play's fault, MB simply feels like a sloth now, and it definitely is eating up more ram even with just 300 entries shown. I had 10,000 in N4 and didn't have this ram usage from MB, but I'll have to test to quantify that - just going on similar workflows that are no longer possible with N5. I'll test it with more entries allowed to see if that helps, and what impact that has on memory - not expecting an improvement though.

After these crashes, I worked the rest of the day without opening MB and had problems with Play or Ram - stayed at 1.8G free.

Read the responses at N.com, and it seems the default response is to switch to Win7.

That is just unacceptable. The lack of reading of the post seems to be common as well.
We've already seen multiple people told to switch for longer recording, and zooming as well.

Which both seem to be looking at other solutions and getting rid of Nuendo all together.

Would be nice to get some real looks into this than "do this, change this" to solve obvious software programming problems.

LEX

[kdm]

Read the responses at N.com, and it seems the default response is to switch to Win7.

That is just unacceptable. The lack of reading of the post seems to be common as well.
We've already seen multiple people told to switch for longer recording, and zooming as well.

Which both seem to be looking at other solutions and getting rid of Nuendo all together.

Would be nice to get some real looks into this than "do this, change this" to solve obvious software programming problems.

LEX

Agreed. The responses there are quite unprofessional and frustrating. Nothing gets solved this way - people there are just angering users and pushing them away from Nuendo/Steinberg. Too bad. N5 is a great app in many ways, but I fear they cut some corners in development to implement some of it, and know that it needs a 64-bit system with a lot of ram just to cover up that lazy programming.

[kdm]

More on this:

Okay, here is the crux of the memory problem I was investigating as of my first post:

** Play 2.08 and MB in N5 definitely don't work together - at all.

A - Play will not instantiate in N5 after MB has been opened and used for a search.
I tested MB in an empty project just to check ram usage, then tried to open Play - wouldn't even instantiate - nothing happened. Here is what I was really referring to in the first post - MB in N5 is stepping on memory allocation for VSTi's, or at least Play. I saw this with Omnisphere early on but assumed it was because I only had 1.8G free (lol). Apparently, it isn't just oddities with these VSTis. It's N5's MediaBay memory allocation.

B - If Play is inserted first, then MB is searched, adding another instrument in Play (only one at the time) will cause a serious error/crash.

C - Play works fine under both scenarios in Nuendo 4, as does Media Bay. In fact, Play seems to load faster in N4 than N5. There is definitely something wrong with N5's memory management with Media Bay. It should not cause VSTi's to report memory errors, fail to load, or crash the program. This is not a limitation of XP32, as I've proved it works perfectly fine in Nuendo 4 - it's a limitation of Nuendo 5. 64-bit systems may only mask this issue, but for composers running heavily loaded host systems, it could easily be an issue there as well.

In addition, Nuendo 4's Media Bay is significantly faster than Nuendo 5's in a blank project, with the same settings (max 300 results). Just typing search words is 100x faster, and results show up much faster as well. While MB in N5 has a much nicer GUI, it is a significant step backwards in performance.

[kdm]

ame result with the latest version of Play, 2.0.18. Definitely a Media Bay bug in Nuendo 5 only (not Nuendo 4).

Repro:

1 - Open a blank project.
2 - Insert Play 2.0.x in VSTi rack; add one instrument (I used Gypsy's Master Violin).
3 - Open Media Bay - search for 2 or 3 different items
4 - Open Play instance, add another instrument (Gypsy Violin Legato in my case)
5 - "Serious error" results (project is now corrupt - "save as" will result in an error message saying the project will save to name-01, -02, etc).
6 - From here on out, Play will start truncating samples - only buffered sample starts will sound - Play has lost memory allocation to Media Bay.
7 - Check task manager - on WinXP32, I have 2.58G free, so this is not a low memory problem, it's a memory conflict.

[kdm]

After closing N5 in this test that issued a "serious error" the following error came up from Windows:


The instruction at "0x670cfc00" referenced memory at 0x0000004". The memory could not be "read". Click on OK to terminate the program

[LEX]

Following the commentary at N.com and I'm not surprised by the responses.

It is unfortunate that the type of response is a total lack of professinality. Its the same kind of response as previous, "its you, its your system, upgrade, buy this".

It was the same response to the initial post I had about video handling in Nuendo 3. After 10 or 12 pages, with alot of support on my point, the defenders came in to derail the issue.

After a few weeks of it, finally there was a response that Nuendo's video engine needed to be rewritten.

So, we are back to that. No real response other than its YOUR problems.
:palm:

LEX

So the latest is that your only choice is to upgrade to Win7 apparently.
So basically, Nuendo only runs on Win7 even though it states XP and Vista.

[TerryG]

To be fair, Steinberg hasn't really said squat yet (surprise surprise)... it's been one guy who makes himself sound like a shill when he repeatedly waives them of responsibility by claiming it's your responsibility to assume the extra costs associated with new technology...
I've added my $0.02 over there.

[kdm]

Thanks for weighing in over there Terry. It's really frustrating. He wasn't the only one with a dismissive or unrelated response, but regardless, that's how threads get buried - enough responses like that and the OP (me in this case) gives up. We'll see if SB responds whenever they get back - August, September, whatever. By then, most of these issues will be forgotten. I'll have to find another solution way before then. Spending money on upgrades or system changes just to circumvent someone else's programming mistake doesn't make me a happy customer though.

[LEX]

To be fair, Steinberg hasn't really said squat yet (surprise surprise)... it's been one guy who makes himself sound like a shill when he repeatedly waives them of responsibility by claiming it's your responsibility to assume the extra costs associated with new technology...
I've added my $0.02 over there.

I know. But it is that kind of response, taking away from the users problem that has always been a problem.

If there is no issue on Win7, then the issues are in Vista/XP which is a problem in itself.

If the answer is always "upgrade", then that's a problem. If SB said, N5 is Win 7 only, then I'm sure some would upgrade and others would wait.

I wonder if the "support" of Xp/Vista/Win7 was more of a sales point then a reality. As Digi does it all the time, I doubt their sales drop because they don't support certain computers or OS's.
I imagine it different with SB.

Since there are users on XP, Vista and Win7, dropping support for anything but Win7 would be a death for upgrades on the SB end.
I'm sure there would be alot of user who would say they will wait to upgrade until they have the time and money to move to Win7.

But if that is the true path, then alot of users were lied too. Hugh runs a major and complex operation with his remote trucks.
His operation is ULTRA CRITICAL as it is live performance.

The fact he is on OSX and Windows reveals a problem. And, with his operation, these kinds of problems are SOOO COSTLY, Nuendo isn't even worth it.

It would be a better option to spend more money on something they could rely on, rather than dealing with problems or "hidden secrets" that come with Nuendo 5.

This is why SB and Nuendo have problems.
Tumppi (sic) who has always supported Nuendo is a bit at his end as well. He's not looking at Nuendo for all it can do. He's looking at Nuendo for the work it can do.
And when it doesn't do what he needs it to do, it costs him time, money and clients. Just like what it will cost Hugh.

Since we still haven't received any response from SB about these CRITICAL problems, maybe there is a solution in the works, or something that can be done quickly for the users who have to deal with it.

If not, then I just have to shake my head and say nothings changed.
I hope SB just doesn't sit back with the same attitude saying "then just upgrade".

That's not an answer. That's pushing it off to the users, and clearly says the programming is lazy and the beta tester program is continually inefficent.

LEX

[Daryl]

Is there the same problem with PLAY 1.* or other sample players?

D

[TAFKAT]

... it's been one guy who makes himself sound like a shill when he repeatedly waives them of responsibility by claiming it's your responsibility to assume the extra costs associated with new technology...

That particular entity has played the identical M.O for years , he sounds like a shill, because he is a shill.

Its good you called him out, not that it will change anything over there, but at least other end users reading in can at least gauge his responses for what they are..

[kdm]

Is there the same problem with PLAY 1.* or other sample players?

D

Don't have Play 1.x on this system anymore, but I plan to test with others. I did see an oddity where Omni wouldn't load, at all last week, but will have to test to see if it's related, or just a low memory issue (Spectrasonics' VSTis all pretty much ignored 32-bit memory compatibility even before the 64-bit release, lol).

[TerryG]

Another issue hanging out in space is the probability that Windows 7 64-bit doesn't necessarily solve the problem of inefficient and bloated coding that 32-bit users are currently seeing with Nuendo 5... it only provides enough headroom to get by for the time being, because the presumption is that any system running 64-bit has AT LEAST 4GB of RAM or more...

My next test: Remove 1 or 2 GB of RAM and boot into Windows 7 64-bit...

In fact, I welcome everyone to test XP/Vista/Win7 in both 32 & 64 bit with only 2GB of RAM...
then we'll know conclusively which OS prevails when ALL system components are otherwise equal.

This will end the runaround of BS once and for all.
It may be a couple of days before I can do this (I don't own Play 1 or 2 for testing this particular issue anyway, but I can try other things), so feel free to jump in.

[LEX]

Another issue hanging out in space is the probability that Windows 7 64-bit doesn't necessarily solve the problem of inefficient and bloated coding that 32-bit users are currently seeing with Nuendo 5... it only provides enough headroom to get by for the time being, because the presumption is that any system running 64-bit has AT LEAST 4GB of RAM or more...

My next test: Remove 1 or 2 GB of RAM and boot into Windows 7 64-bit...

In fact, I welcome everyone to test XP/Vista/Win7 in both 32 & 64 bit with only 2GB of RAM...
then we'll know conclusively which OS prevails when ALL system components are otherwise equal.

This will end the runaround of BS once and for all.
It may be a couple of days before I can do this (I don't own Play 1 or 2 for testing this particular issue anyway, but I can try other things), so feel free to jump in.

Well, if you find serious fault with removing the RAM, then SB is guilt of complete false advertisement.

Im starting to wonder if N5 was really designed and only works in Win7, but advertised XP/Vista and Win7 to continue upgrades.

I smell a rat, and it isn't the users.

LEX

[TAFKAT]

In fact, I welcome everyone to test XP/Vista/Win7 in both 32 & 64 bit with only 2GB of RAM...
then we'll know conclusively which OS prevails when ALL system components are otherwise equal.

Vista / Win7 are useless with 2 GB of RAM , the base footprint at idle is double to triple that of Windows XP/XP x64, so there is less available RAM for the applications.

I love Steini's minimum requirement of listing of 1GB of RAM, that will barely load the O.S with Vista/Win7 and the application with an empty session, actually it may not even manage that.. LOL

[Daryl]

Don't have Play 1.x on this system anymore, but I plan to test with others. I did see an oddity where Omni wouldn't load, at all last week, but will have to test to see if it's related, or just a low memory issue (Spectrasonics' VSTis all pretty much ignored 32-bit memory compatibility even before the 64-bit release, lol).
That would be useful, because PLAY causes so many problems on so many systems that it would be good to rule it out. Not that EW would ever admit that it was their fault anyway. :icon_rolleyes:

D

[kdm]

That would be useful, because PLAY causes so many problems on so many systems that it would be good to rule it out. Not that EW would ever admit that it was their fault anyway. :icon_rolleyes:

D

I'll do some testing later this week. The fact that it does not cause this problem with Nuendo 4/MB leads me to suspect N5/MB, though granted, it could be that N5 changed it's memory allocation process and it now conflicts with Play's.

The latter part of your statement is the frustrating part - these are the two companies, of all the industry, least likely to admit anything, or fix it. sigh.

[Daryl]

I'll do some testing later this week. The fact that it does not cause this problem with Nuendo 4/MB leads me to suspect N5/MB, though granted, it could be that N5 changed it's memory allocation process and it now conflicts with Play's.

The latter part of your statement is the frustrating part - these are the two companies, of all the industry, least likely to admit anything, or fix it. sigh.
I really don't understand why a company can't see that owning up to problems, and then fixing them in a timely manner, enhances their reputation. To me it just seems so obvious.

I am currently doing a thorough re-appraisal of all the software that I use. So far there is no reason to upgrade to Nuendo 5. I am making a list of all the things that bug me about N4, and once I've seen how many of them are fixed in N5 I might change my mind. However, once VOXOS is released PLAY will be off my system for good. Even though I'm told that PLAY 2 solves a lot of the problems associated with PLAY 1, I just don't need the grief.

D

[TAFKAT]

However, once VOXOS is released PLAY will be off my system for good. Even though I'm told that PLAY 2 solves a lot of the problems associated with PLAY 1, I just don't need the grief.

... Man, I hope for Cinesamples (http://www.cinesamples.com/) their website isn't a reflection of the quality of their VI's.. :eusa_think:

[Daryl]

... Man, I hope for Cinesamples (http://www.cinesamples.com/) their website isn't a reflection of the quality of their VI's.. :eusa_think:
Yes, it's not the best Website, but the video demos sound promising.

D

[kdm]

Media Bay's issues may not be just with Play, but any sample-VSTi. Just got a serious error/corrupt project after searching for 2 files in MB without Play in the project - just Kontakt 4 and Omnisphere. I had also gone through turning off more of the extra drives/folders it is set to scan by default, which includes removable drives, DVD/CD drives, system files/folders, etc - really really crazy to default it to everything - quite dangerous. Fortunately, even though it asked to save to a -01 filename, I closed and reopened the original and it doesn't seem to be affected. Just a local memory problem, not written to the project file.

I really think MB's memory handling in 32-bit XP is completely screwed up. I don't recommend using MB at all until Steinberg fixes this, or better yet, stick to/move to Soundminer or equivalent.
MB in N5 is without a doubt a step down from MB in N4, despite the GUI revisions. All I want it for is a quick in-line fx search option, but it's lost even that reliability now.

[TAFKAT]

Dedric,

I think you are right that there is something seriously screwy with N5/C5.5 on XP on some systems.

There doesn't seem to be any consistency unfortunately, so of course HQ will just fob it off as being systematic. I personally had issues on numerous XP configs. I have an issue with a client at the moment with 2 systems on XPx64 , the single Quad updates to C5.5 and he is loving the new MB features, on the Dual Quad all Hell breaks loose after installing C5.5 with the new elicencer , Cubase firing up with large portions of GUI missing on the initial project manager, menu corruption, instability, crashes, absolutely unworkable. Identical Vid cards on both so its not vid card related. C5.5 on Win7 x64 on the Dual Quad is fine, but there are other issues associated with Win7 on the earlier hardware with ACPI , so its just a cluster at the moment.

Without a common denominator , its safer for me to stick with C5.1.1 on XP, with Nuendo tho, well, you know what the new mantra is... WFHOW7x64