Sensible Surround handling on VST3 plugins

[neilwilkes]

Currently this sucks big time.
What is the point of having global parameter operation on a surround compressor or EQ?
Pointless.........separate channel handling/adjustment is needed, along the lines of what Aleksey at Voxengo is doing, or the old & sadly obsolete Surround Edition.

[Thonex]

Forgive my ignorance... not sure I'm following you.

Are you saying there should be discrete control of each compressor or EQ channel when inserted into a surround multi-channel track? As if they were all discrete tracks?

I agree.. but I'm not sure I'm understanding you.
Cheers,

T

[Sam]

yep, having a global controlset for all channels of a multichannel track sucks balls....why the hell would I ever want the same EQ on my LFE as on my SR channels? Same goes for compression. I could even give them a break if we had LR pair controls, SL SR controls and separate C and LFE controls....but as it is now its useless...worse than actually, I used to be able to just insert 3 of the comp etc and use insert routing to get the instances across the right channels...this is no possibility with VST3 plugs...thank god I have a UAD2 Quad with all VST2 plugs still!

[neilwilkes]

Forgive my ignorance... not sure I'm following you.

Are you saying there should be discrete control of each compressor or EQ channel when inserted into a surround multi-channel track? As if they were all discrete tracks?

I agree.. but I'm not sure I'm understanding you.
Cheers,

T

You're understanding perfectly - this is exactly right.
Truly independant control of each parameter on every channel is what is required.
The same method is used in the old & missed "Surround Edition", where each channel has discrete control. Seems that whilst VST3 scales up automatically, it is in my world completely useless in it's current implementation. How often will I want the same EQ or compressor settings on L/R and C (or LFE, or Ls/Rs and C) but you get my point by now...

[TerryG]

You're understanding perfectly - this is exactly right.
Truly independant control of each parameter on every channel is what is required.
The same method is used in the old & missed "Surround Edition", where each channel has discrete control. Seems that whilst VST3 scales up automatically, it is in my world completely useless in it's current implementation. How often will I want the same EQ or compressor settings on L/R and C (or LFE, or Ls/Rs and C) but you get my point by now...
Old and missed??? I'm using SEv2 in C4 as we speak.
Don't you have this anymore, or is it that you'd prefer Steiny built a VST3 version and included it in v4?

[neilwilkes]

Old and missed??? I'm using it in C4 as we speak.
Don't you have this anymore, or is it that you'd prefer Steiny built a VST3 version and included it in v4?

Old & Missed as in "Obsolete & no longer supported with no new bugfixes to follow - ever as Spectral Design went belly-up thanks to hackers".
It sort of works in N4, same as it sort of worked in N3. Just not properly.
Examples:
Try loading an instance of OctoQ, save the project.
Reloading you will find that Patch #1 is reset to default.
(Many bugs in OctoQ, which is a crying shame as it is a superb EQ)
Try loading 2 instances of OctoMaxx - This will work until you reload the project, at which point it will be corrupted & unloadable.
Try getting OctoComp to display any gain reduction under 6dB on it's meter.

A VST3 version ain't gonna happen. Steiny don't own the rights to the plugins. What we need is for the VST3 plugins to allow for individual control over each channel or group of channels as was done in VST2.4 plugins:
Surround Edition
Waves 360
Voxengo etc
VST3 should be capable of this.

[TerryG]

Spectral Design was only 2 or 3 guys... it seems like Steiny could either buy the rights or hire them to make improvements if they cared to.
I bet Aleksey @ Voxengo would work on surround plugs if enough people showed interest. Somewhere in the back of my head I seem to remember him mentioning it.

[TAFKAT]

Spectral Design are still alive and kicking, only not in regards to supporting Cubendo.., instead focusing purely on proprietary versions of the plugs.. Here (http://www.cube-tec.com/vpis/index.html)

[TerryG]

Spectral Design are still alive and kicking, only not in regards to supporting Cubendo.., instead focusing purely on proprietary versions of the plugs.. Here (http://www.cube-tec.com/vpis/index.html)

Proprietary, but based on using Wavelab inside their own computer build???
WTF? They even have links to Steinberg's Wavelab and Nuendo pages, but no pricing or hint of availability to Wavelab or Nuendo users.... weird.
I've filled out their contact form and hopefully they'll answer my questions.

[neilwilkes]

Spectral Design are still alive and kicking, only not in regards to supporting Cubendo.., instead focusing purely on proprietary versions of the plugs.. Here (http://www.cube-tec.com/vpis/index.html)

That's not Spectral Design, really. I am certain of it.
It's Cube-tech, which is (AFAIK) a different animal. It uses a sort of version of WaveLab, but it isn't steinberg either.
Either way, there are not going to be any fixes on the VST plugins.

Aleksey does not see the point of VST3 at all, neither do a lot of others. General consensus is that it causes more problems than it solves (don't ask me - I have no idea at all about programming) and for surround - why bother as you can already do this stuff in VST2.4 anyway. As Aleksey does.
(Crunchessor, Elephant 3, OverTone GEQ etc).
Sure, you can set up easy sidechains with VST3 - gotta love that IMHO. But the much touted surround scaling in it's current implementation just is not good.....

[TerryG]

That's not Spectral Design, really. I am certain of it.
It's Cube-tech, which is (AFAIK) a different animal. It uses a sort of version of WaveLab, but it isn't steinberg either.
Either way, there are not going to be any fixes on the VST plugins.

Aleksey does not see the point of VST3 at all, neither do a lot of others. General consensus is that it causes more problems than it solves (don't ask me - I have no idea at all about programming) and for surround - why bother as you can already do this stuff in VST2.4 anyway. As Aleksey does.
(Crunchessor, Elephant 3, OverTone GEQ etc).
Sure, you can set up easy sidechains with VST3 - gotta love that IMHO. But the much touted surround scaling in it's current implementation just is not good.....

Cube-Tech lists all the Surround Edition plugs (they call plug-ins VPI's) with slightly different names, and they offer a Magneto and Free Filter as well as many of the common plug names found in Nuendo since day one...

[TAFKAT]

That's not Spectral Design, really. I am certain of it.
It's Cube-tech, which is (AFAIK) a different animal. It uses a sort of version of WaveLab, but it isn't steinberg either.
Either way, there are not going to be any fixes on the VST plugins.

CubTec at one time was very closely linked to Steinberg / Spectral at the corp level if not majority owned , and also offered a dedicated version of Nuendo as well as the current Wavelab Audio Cube. The special version of Wavelab is no different to the commercial version except that it has slightly different coloring to the GUI, and an expanded plugin set, that they called VI's.

This is just marketing 101 to the high end broadcast monkeys who wouldn't know their arse from their elbows in my experience.

I spent hours on a Cubetec/Wavelab box at a trade show one year about 7 1/2 years back and laughed my head off as it was simply a Dual PIII-S in a Blue 4 U case running W2K / Wavelab / Mykerinos card, with the expanded plugs running off the dedicated DSP's. All of the plugins available in Wavelab/Nuendo/Mastering Bundle that were Spectral branded were available with a slightly different hue to the GUI's, as well as many that had not made the VST stable - all Spectral branded.

My calculations on the DAW / hardware /software package was around $6,000.00 at the time , they were selling it successfully to the major Broadcasters / Governmental Archival Institutions here in access of $30,000.00. The Nuendo boxes which they have now dropped, shared the same marketing and inflated price tags. Needless to say I had to hand it to them if they could market the units at that level and convince the broadcasters reps that it was money well spent. Maybe Steinberg should have taken more notice on how to market Nuendo at the high end.

You are correct that there is not going to be any updates to the VST versions tho , but it isn't because Spectral has gone under, but more so that they stopped developing the VST versions , which they probably considered a Dead End O.