Virtual VCA Groups

[neilwilkes]

Please!!!
Currently I use FX returns/tracks for this. Seems to work, but VCA groups would be better.

[Animus]

+1

I would love VCA groups and automation. I don't see how you are doing that with fx channels though?

[LEX]

Yep.

PT introduced that in 7.2 over 1.5 years ago.

Seems like it would make sense. Only if we could get SB to see the logic, behind the logic.

LEX

[John Lance]

Only if we could get SB to see the logic, behind the logic.LEX

It is more like a desk. It is also much more intuitive than the grouping of channels the way it is now.

How would you propose though to conveniently show a channel/track is currently under the influence of a particular VCA style fader biasing? Right now I don't believe we have much of an indication with the current grouping method either.

Not to be over the top, but could anyone think of a scenario where any particular fader should be under the influence of 2 or more VCA style faders? Right now I cannot, but maybe someone could make a valid case?

I'm hoping Steinberg has not already looked the concept over and come to the conclusion they would have to rip everything up to implement it.

[LEX]

It is more like a desk. It is also much more intuitive than the grouping of channels the way it is now.

How would you propose though to conveniently show a channel/track is currently under the influence of a particular VCA style fader biasing? Right now I don't believe we have much of an indication with the current grouping method either.

Not to be over the top, but could anyone think of a scenario where any particular fader should be under the influence of 2 or more VCA style faders? Right now I cannot, but maybe someone could make a valid case?

I'm hoping Steinberg has not already looked the concept over and come to the conclusion they would have to rip everything up to implement it.

Well if you have used VCA style grouping and group routing, you would see why VCA groups is really, really handy.

Especially when dealing with multiple groups under the same "type" of group.

To put it simply, if you have a Group Output master with a common compressor or EQ, having 3 different VCA groups to control levels and a sub group eq, you could still route them all to the master, have individual channel control and not have to deal with the output master.

Guess that isn't simple.
Okay, 3 drum groups (snare/kick, toms, oh) but you want them all to have a master output group with a master compressor.
Currently, you have to route them to group returns then to a group master.
More stupid bussing.

All it is, is just control and has been around pretty much since the dawn of mixing.
I use it everyday on the Euphonix S5. I used it on the SSL consoles.

The way you have to link channels makes it impossible to work with the individual channels.
So, if I want to raise channel 3 by 1 dB, I have to unlink the channels, raise C3, relink and do that over and over.

The grouping is retarded they way it is now. That is way VCA's work. It is just a control over the channels connected to it. Not group linked.

Think about this. I take VCA 1 down 3 dB, but realize I need to boost C3 by 1 dB over all.
Can't do it currently. The time it takes is 3 times as long.

1) lower group(link) 3dB
2) unlink group
3) raise C3 1dB
4) relink group (what all was in that group again)
5) rerun section and ride C3.

As I see it, this is 3 passes. If it is 5 minute long, that is 15 minutes plus the time for unlinking and relinking.
Retarded.

And don't tell me to go into the automation view, and adjust the level.

This isn't mixing. Mixing is grabbing the fader, using your ears and adjusting levels WHILE the track/scene plays.

Now on VCA.

1) Set levels of VCA and C3.
2) Play and ride

Done 5 minutes. I don't have to grab a mouse and I can adjust, to taste (which is what mixing is) while it plays.

I do this everyday, and if I was on Nuendo, it would have been fired on day one.
So if you are "in the box" with Nuendo, you are screwed.
If you are "in the box" with PT, you are working live.

If you have a real console, then it doesn't matter because the console has VCA's and you can mix.

If SB can't figure out how to do it, then they need to hire someone who knows how to mix and ACTUALLY has mix experience.

LEX

[Animus]

Right on Lex. Steinberg should hire you. :)

Steinberg automation (that Euphonix is based off incidentally) and dealing with faders in masse is a pain in the ass.

[LEX]

Right on Lex. Steinberg should hire you. :)

Steinberg automation (that Euphonix is based off incidentally) and dealing with faders in masse is a pain in the ass.

They might actually sell more software and become something more.

Of course I would have a long list of people with a door hitting them in the arse.

The irony is that the users have spoken over and over again about the things, basic things, they need and they are ignored.
And it is the users with the good ideas, yet as users we keep getting feed some usefully things and things that barely work, or don't at all.

So who is SB listening to? Each other.

Oh, BTW. The whole Martin Stahl debate that Fredo stated he was "scared" away from the forum.
Yeah, that was me. When Fredo said Euphonix followed the automation Martin designed, I lost it.
Because it is Bullshit.
I have the Euphonix manual. The automation in Nuendo is written basically from that manual.
And the whole "Martin developed the automation that the MC5 follows" is also BS.
There maybe some Harrison things in there, but it is 95 percent or more Euphonix and SB follows what Euphonix developed.

Where do you think PT got their automation from? Granted even before 7, PT had more advance automation than any version of Nuendo pre N4.

LEX

[John Lance]

Well if you have used VCA style grouping and group routing, you would see why VCA groups is really, really handy.LEX

Have used VCA's before. It is an extremely useful concept. I was just kicking in with a reason why Steinberg should've pursued it.

To have a fader implementation like this is more like a regular desk and it is intuitive, but you take it to a downright conclusive and can't shake it off reality. Two thumbs up and with a standing ovation! I hope they're listening.

The other part of my post, I am asking if anyone could conceive of or use "stacked" VCA style faders, where a particular channel could come under the control of more than one VCA style fader. It looks like you may have answered that.

The other point, is that it would be nice to be able to see at a glance which VCA style faders have control over any given channel and be able to enable/disable the function for that channel with ease.

I was hoping back with Nuendo 2 they would have put VCA style control faders in, instead of just fixing the grouping mess they came up with.

[LEX]

The other part of my post, I am asking if anyone could conceive of or use "stacked" VCA style faders, where a particular channel could come under the control of more than one VCA style fader. It looks like you may have answered that.

The other point, is that it would be nice to be able to see at a glance which VCA style faders have control over any given channel and be able to enable/disable the function for that channel with ease.

I was hoping back with Nuendo 2 they would have put VCA style control faders in, instead of just fixing the grouping mess they came up with.

Stacked. You mean that there is a VCA group - channels 1-8, but channel 1 controls channels 2-8.

I am not sure what you mean.

Typically I have a VCA for a groups of channels, x 8 for example then have a VCA master that controls the 8 VCA sub groups.

LEX

[John Lance]

Stacked. You mean that there is a VCA group - channels 1-8, but channel 1 controls channels 2-8.

I am not sure what you mean.

Typically I have a VCA for a groups of channels, x 8 for example then have a VCA master that controls the 8 VCA sub groups.

LEX
The typical use is one VCA for a group of channels, but I am thinking there are possible scenarios where you still have a VCA for a group of channels, but another VCA for a subgroup of that and maybe along with other channels elsewhere at the same time. Weird, but a possible usefulness I am thinking.

VCA 1: Channels 1 through 8
VCA 2: Channels 7 and 8 with 10.

[LEX]

The typical use is one VCA for a group of channels, but I am thinking there are possible scenarios where you still have a VCA for a group of channels, but another VCA for a subgroup of that and maybe along with other channels elsewhere at the same time. Weird, but a possible usefulness I am thinking.

VCA 1: Channels 1 through 8
VCA 2: Channels 7 and 8 with 10.

On the side away from this explanation: I like the automation possibilities, and I like the fact the sends on the channels under a VCA keep their relations proper. This means no more fx dedicated to a group of channels and used before a group summing channel for overall volume control. The fx (reverb, delay, chorus, whatever) can be used in a broader manner.

Oh I see what you mean.
I don't know of any consoles that do that though at the moment.

I think there is alot of potential for trouble in programming.
Like if you push VCA1 up while you are Pulling VCA2 down at the same time.

I guess there would have to be a group order program to say, "if VCA 1 is used, then it proceeds movement of VCA 2".
that could get complicated.

How is this for an idea.
Quick VCA groups. IOW, you have VCA 1 always, but can create a "one time" VCA where you assign 7,8 and 10, do your move and the VCA group goes away.

It could just be one extra fader with "quicklink".

LEX

[Animus]

The typical use is one VCA for a group of channels, but I am thinking there are possible scenarios where you still have a VCA for a group of channels, but another VCA for a subgroup of that and maybe along with other channels elsewhere at the same time. Weird, but a possible usefulness I am thinking.

VCA 1: Channels 1 through 8
VCA 2: Channels 7 and 8 with 10.

Absolutely, that's how VCA's can work.

[LUpton]

Absolutely, that's how VCA's can work.

I work TV sports shoots occasionally as audio mixer, and I run into Yamaha PM3000 and PM4000 analog mixers installed in the older remote trucks. The VCA assign buttons on these consoles act just like mix buss assign buttons - the physical buttons are latching, and any or all of them can be assigned at any time. So, it is possible to do what John is talking about on one of these mixers, and probably on most real consoles as well, so it is also possible to assign yourself into a corner, control-wise, if you are not careful. But the capability is there from the beginning.

Stuff like this should be standard on a high-end platform such as Nuendo. It's just math....:D

Larry Upton