Mac vs PC on Nuendo 4

[Thonex]

Hi,

I've been under a rock for the last 18 months... and I need to now upgrade my system.

About 4-5 years ago I went with a Dual Opteron (after being a life long Mac guy) because Nuendo on the New Mac OSX sucked.

Now.. I'm on N3.1 (yeah yeah... I know... but if it ain't broke why fix it right???) and I'm seriously needing more RAM and CPU.

Soooooo.... Does N4 run well on a Mac with 64bit addressing? Better than a PC? or are they basically the same? Or does PC still blow Mac out of the water insofar as Nuendo is concerned?

I'm sort of flirting with the idea of going back to Mac... I know some PC companies are building DAWs with 48Gigs of RAM running Vista 64 SP1 with great success. Is Vista the way to go?

Anyway...

Any info would be great.

Thanks,

Andrew K

[Softy]

Windows still blows it out of the water, especially dollar for dollar. But also in absolute terms. I have some hope for the idea that a good Hackintosh will make it more comparable. But so far, it seems (at least for now) that my Windows DAW machines aren't getting switched out for Macs. I haven't gotten a chance to try the Hackintosh yet. If I do, you'll be among the first to know.

If I had to build a Nuendo machine right now, it would be an i7 system running Windows 7.

[kdm]

Were the differences that significant? Any comparison numbers you've seen or experienced Softy? Vin?

It might help everyone including Andrew if we could formulate some basic comparison listing since many of us are watching Windows 7, Vista 64, Snow Leopard, etc, but can't necessarily wait for a year or two for the dust to settle.

I was thinking Nuendo on Mac was more a matter of a loss in a latency level - e.g. 256 where you might run 128 on a PC, or something like 10-15% lower plugin count at a given latency level? (along with a few niggles and lesser bugs specific to OSX?)

[TAFKAT]

Hey Dedric,

It definately gets worse as the latency is lowered, but even at latency values of 256 there is a significant difference.

Check out the results Here (http://cubendo.com/showpost.php?p=11304&postcount=27)

This is related to the scaling issues due to OSX's inability to navigate and control EIST ( Steedstep) at the kernel level as well as Windows.

What will be interesting is that with me being able to control EIST and C1 Halt state at the BIOS levels on i7 systems, it could improve the performance substantially with OSX on the Hackintosh solutions.

Wouldn't that put a rocket up Apple.. LOL

@ Andrew,

My suggestion would be, i7 / Win7 x64 / N4/5 32 bit / using jBridge for 64 bit VSTi's.. ;-)

[Daryl]

Thonex, one other thing to remember is that if you get into needing a lot of memory, not only dose it become much more expensive with the Mac Pros, but you are severely limited in the amount of memory you can have running at anywhere near the proper speed. In order to get 1066 (Vin, please correct me if I get it wrong) you can only use six slots. The other two will put you into dual channel mode.

Obviously, if you don't need a huge amount of memory because you're still using slave computers, then this shouldn't be a concern.

I also feel obliged to say that the current generation of Macs is way over-priced. The old ones were fairly priced (IMO), and more or less equivalent to their PC counterparts. The new ones are anything from 30% higher, for lower specced machines, and that's if you don';t get the memory and hard drives from Apple. :>o

Personally, even if the performance on OSX was identical to Windows, I would wait until the dust settles on Snow Leopard, in case it turns out to be far more painful than Apple is letting on. Another year, and it should be possible to make a comparison.

I'm also very curious to see the performance of OSX on a Hackintosh. Any benchies yet?

D

[D]

Obviously, if you don't need a huge amount of memory because you're still using slave computers, then this shouldn't be a concern.

My electric bill was $183 for last month. That's 150% higher than last year for the same amount of juice. Now I don't know if you have slaves, but I'm sure that now you could start to actually recoup your losses by running fewer machines with more power. Another consideration perhaps. I would also go with an i7.

[TAFKAT]

There are actually only 4 memory slots per socket on the Nehalem Mac Pro's, which in a Tri Channel memory array is a bit ridiculous, as using all the slots drops it back to Dual Channel.

Maybe not a huge factor for some, but the principle to me is still that the MB solutions are really barely above consumer level.

Also Max available RAM when using 4GB chips ( which is extremely rare and quite expensive in the required low voltage variants ) is 16GB on single socket , 32 on Dual Socket , compare that to the available solutions on PC.

Single Socket professional boards have 6 slots ( only low end consumer/entry level have 4 - except for Intels X58 board, which is a running joke) - using freely available 2GB chips max ram is 12GB , using 4GB its 24GB - still running in the required Tri-Channel. On Dual Socket Boards its 9 memory slots per socket - 36GB per Socket x 2 - 72GB , or using the freely available 2GB chips - 18GB per socket / 36GB total running in Tri Channel.

RE the Hackintosh, I'll have some comparable benchies soonish, just dotting some i's , and juggling a million other things as well, one being the new i5/P55 platform , which is a weird hybrid of i7 , new and previous gen specs. Dual Channel memory , no QPI interconnect , but PCIex16 and MC on die, and a single southbridge mb chip via a previous gen PCIe subsystem interconnect... WT... :icon_eek3:

IMO, by the time Snow Leopard / seq 5.1 hits, Win7 will have it cleaned up for DAW use. OSX will still remain for those on Logic/ Final cut Pro, but despite the leaks of N5 having these massive improvements over N4 on OSX , we need to remember the numbers being quoted will just level the performance to the current gen on Windows, and there are substantial improvements on Windows MP performance being reported as well for N5.

I do believe the situation will improve in regards to comparable performance , but nothing to make anyone jump platform unless other factors are in play that leads them to OSX.

[Daryl]

My electric bill was $183 for last month. That's 150% higher than last year for the same amount of juice. Now I don't know if you have slaves, but I'm sure that now you could start to actually recoup your losses by running fewer machines with more power. Another consideration perhaps. I would also go with an i7.
Yes, I already do everything on one PC. However, my electric bills are still quite high, due to the air con being on virtually all the time. :>(

An i7 is not really powerful enough for what I want to do with my next studio upgrade. Also, as I will need about 36GB RAM, it reduces my options.

D

[Thonex]

Thanks guys... So I guess an i7 with Windows 7.

I'll finally have to get rid of my Midex 8s... will use motu since I think they have their drivers together.

Sorry for the lame nubee question... is the i7 an 8 core CPU?

Cheers,

AK

[kdm]

I'm using the MOTU interface now

The only downside so far is when rebooting it sometimes loses connection and I have to unplug/replug the USB cable. Sometimes it also loses routing to Nuendo on a port or two during that process. And clockworks has never worked..... other than that it runs fine (don't power down often, so the reboot issue isn't a big deal).

[Thonex]

The only downside so far is when rebooting it sometimes loses connection and I have to unplug/replug the USB cable. Sometimes it also loses routing to Nuendo on a port or two during that process. And clockworks has never worked.....

well... that's a bummer. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.:eusa_eh:

[Daryl]

The i7 is a quad core.

D

[D]

The i7 is a quad core....

...with HT that actually works, so it will appear as 8 cores.

[kdm]

well... that's a bummer. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.:eusa_eh:

Well, call me a dork. I realized since I didn't need SMPTE via that interface, I went with the 128 instead of the XT/Timepiece and it doesn't support Clockworks - MOTU just sends the same install disc for all interfaces so I assumed it did - should have read the manual I guess.

The XT should be fine if you need SMPTE sync. 128 if you just need midi I/O. The reboot issue could be a simple USB on the PC side.