Logic 9 Released [Archive]

TAFKAT

07-23-2009, 11:33 AM

Yep.. !

Click Here (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB795Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5Mw&mco=NzM5NDc5NA&p=1&s=topSellers)

Logic Studio features Logic Pro 9, MainStage 2, Soundtrack Pro 3, and a massive collection of instruments, effects, and audio loops. With over 200 new features, it has everything musicians need to write, record, produce, and perform.
Top New Features in Logic Studio

* Flex Time lets you manipulate audio timing and tempo like never before.
* Build dream guitar rigs with the new Amp Designer and Pedalboard.
* MainStage 2 with new Playback and Loopback features let you take your Mac to the stage.
* Shape your sound using more than 80 studio-quality plug-ins.
* Inspire your music with more than 1,000 instruments and 20,000 Apple Loops.

This will be interesting..

kdm

07-23-2009, 11:34 AM

It is. Logic Pro 9 is listed here (http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/logicpro/)

kdm

07-23-2009, 11:35 AM

Lol, Vin was typing faster.

zvenx

07-23-2009, 12:08 PM

aspects of it really look good....... hopefully SB takes note.....

rsp

Jonesy

07-23-2009, 12:23 PM

TAFKAT

07-23-2009, 12:30 PM

Wow Steve,

Coming from you that is really something, as I know how long you have been Steini supporter on the Mac platform..

Can't say I blame you.

Let us know how it goes..

LEX

07-23-2009, 01:46 PM

I am buying it. Had it with Steinberg, use a Mac, don't care anymore when N5 comes out. Between PT 8 and now Logic 9 I don't feel any reason to use a Steinberg product again. I have my Nuendo dongle to open old tracks, Halion was a waste of money and is dead in the water, moving on now.

There are alot of people in the same boat as u.

Tell us how LP9 is. Some of us might jump too. I've considered logic for many, many years.

LEX

Yeah, I think it maybe time to pickup Logic and start learning it. Wow. Some impressive stuff there.
Personally, a much better release then C5 was in terms of "new" features.

At least the automation isn't a "hack" job like C5.

kdm

07-23-2009, 01:58 PM

There are alot of people in the same boat as u.

Tell us how LP9 is. Some of us might jump too. I've considered logic for many, many years.

LEX

I used to use Logic back in the PC days v3 through 5.5. I loved it, but hated the audio handling. Seems to have improved, but still not sure about some aspects (though the new flex tool in LP9 seems very nice - similar to hitpoint editing, but without the hit points). PDC on busses? Was that added in 7.x/8?

Last I looked in LP8 tempo mapping had some limitations we don't have in Nuendo, but I would have to sit down with it for a while to be sure there. After a few years in Nuendo, I can do everything I did in Logic midi-wise, with better audio, but I still like Logic quite a bit - it would be my sequencer of choice if I had a reason to switch at some point. LP9 looks like a nice upgrade.

dcwave

07-23-2009, 03:59 PM

Can Logic still front end PT hardware like it used to? So If I get a HD3 system can Logic use the DSP?

LEX

07-23-2009, 04:03 PM

Can Logic still front end PT hardware like it used to? So If I get a HD3 system can Logic use the DSP?

Yes

LEX

trock

07-23-2009, 04:46 PM

does logic have something like media bay where i can listen to WAV files before inserting them to a track??

paulwr

07-23-2009, 05:32 PM

Some tempting features. But not much about midi. Looks like a lot of audio upgrades to the program, which is I guess what was needed most. For composers heavy into midi orchestrations I'll need to hear more. I'm not sure I'm ready to live without the logical editor and the workflow I have developed. Must keep my eye on it, though. Probably way better video handling, but I've not been in a position to need new features there......... yet.

-Paul

RiffWraith

07-23-2009, 05:42 PM

does logic have something like media bay where i can listen to WAV files before inserting them to a track??

You don't need MBay listen to WAV files before inserting them to a track - you can preview them right in the Import Audio dial box.

Cheers.

efernan

07-23-2009, 05:47 PM

kdm

07-23-2009, 05:58 PM

You don't need MBay listen to WAV files before inserting them to a track - you can preview them right in the Import Audio dial box.

Cheers.

True, but MB is way more convenient for previewing and searching for fx or files that might be in other projects, samples drives, etc. The import audio window is fine when you know what file you are looking for and not scouring folders.

RiffWraith

07-23-2009, 06:27 PM

True, but MB is way more convenient for previewing and searching for fx or files that might be in other projects, samples drives, etc. The import audio window is fine when you know what file you are looking for and not scouring folders.

True, but if I need to find something and don't know where it is, I use the Windows search. Never having tried MB for this, I must ask - do you find it faster then doing a Windows search?

LEX

07-23-2009, 06:49 PM

I keep forgetting.

I crappiest and dumbest thing about Apple and Logic.

Doesn't do Broadcast Wave. Unless they got off their high horse and added it in this version.

8 did, Aiff and SD2(which is a dead format), .wav.

Unless they have added a BCW file header function.

LEX

TAFKAT

07-23-2009, 06:53 PM

There're some nice features, many just "catch-ups" to other DAW software.

But what I noticed is that it's marketed much like a hobbyist/toy app (compare it to the new Final Cut Pro 7, for example). The same is happening to Apogee. Newer products are much like "toys" for the "iExperience", or whatever they call it.

Cheers!

+1,

When I first hit the link that Richard has posted in the first post, I thought I was looking at Garageband... :icon_eek3:

Not from the specs, I hadn't got to the finer detail, just the layout and approach.., bloody iFruits running the marketing again .. LOL

kdm

07-23-2009, 07:21 PM

True, but if I need to find something and don't know where it is, I use the Windows search. Never having tried MB for this, I must ask - do you find it faster then doing a Windows search?

Yes, for media files/fx. I can restrict the search to file types (within media vs. explorer's broader search filter), and just enter a portion of the expected name and it filters on the fly. Also have audition options and file format/meta data info available.

Explorer is a one-at-a-time search process - takes longer unless I'm just looking for a specific audio or project-related file and know where it is, then I'll use the import dialog or explorer (such as moving an OMF from client drive to project folder, etc).

colony nofi

07-23-2009, 08:55 PM

Looks interesting. Will grab the update soon and have a look at it.
Something tells me some of the features will be a godsend, but perhaps not "manipulatable" enough.... dunno why I feel that...

The auto clip level matching in sountrack pro is interesting - but it could go SO much further... like the protools plugin that automates a track based on RMS values and other tricks (yes, I REALLY want a VST of something like this, or even something built into nuendo... like an automation curve that is drawn based on the RMS (with the time component being user configurable) value of clips...and then u can invert / use it to manipulate other automation... the trials of the plug (protools only) are incredible for post!

I'm not that excited about the new guitar rig like features in logic 9.
I'm very interested in their new time warping / audio quantizing / varispeed implementations.

Interesting times for Nuendo / Cubase. Am certain that logics pricing is definately eating into cubase sales on the apple side. I'd love to see figures.

Back to work.

cheers, Brendan.

Jonesy

07-23-2009, 09:30 PM

Wow Steve,

Coming from you that is really something, as I know how long you have been Steini supporter on the Mac platform..

Can't say I blame you.

Let us know how it goes..

Well, I have been using Pro Tools 8 lately, and am very impressed. Most of the artists that I work with are using logic and constantly tell me how good it is, and having watched them working, Logic seems like a better songwriting tool than anything else that I have seen.

I woke up recently thinking about the whole thing, and it dawned on me that I could just go buy PTLE and Logic for not much money, I already use Apogee converters, so I just need some kind of ADAT bridge for Protools, and I am all good.

I feel like I have made the decision to leave an abusive relationship. I have worked for years now without input metering on my channels, because a software developer decided that I could not have it. I have received some amazing customer service lately from several companies, and it made me realise that for years I have been receiving appalling customer treatment from the company that makes the DAW that I use.

Once I got over the fact that I won't have some of the features anymore that I love in Nuendo, I see that they will simply be replaced by all kinds of amazing new features in Logic and PT, so I have lots to look forward to. Yes, I also know that there will be plenty of new bugs too, but, hey, I am already used to bugs that are impossible to kill because they either don't exist or are "features" or figments of collective imagination. I will get to feel like a customer again, instead of something that is stuck to the bottom of Steinberg's shoe. I have to say, I feel so much better having made my decision.

Jonesy

07-23-2009, 09:33 PM

To add to the above, it would seem to me personally that for an engineer, to be adept in both Logic and Protools is an obvious smart move, so time for me to get Logic and get cracking.

nikki-k

07-24-2009, 02:48 AM

Logic 9.. the PT7 killer!
(just kidding!)
I have (ooops- HAD) been with PT for over 10 years (PT HD and LE). Since I am only doing my own music now, and based upon what has happened with Digi (and PT, and where I feel it is going.. or not), I bought C5. Being on Mac computers, I knew it was an interesting choice, and this forum provided plenty of hesitation (since the cubase.net forums are.. hehehe.. edited? ;) ). I owned Logic 8, but shelved it due to some workflow issues (primarily due to issues with non x/4 meters, especially when using folders, and/or tempo changes).

L9 looks.. interesting. Once I grab Komplete 5, L9 upgrade will be next. For composing (mostly prog rock/metal stuff), C5 meets a lot/most of my wishes. The dongle sucks, Steiny seems stubborn?, and the dongle sucks. Apple/emagic are more scarce in the customer communication dept, and I am not quite sure what they want to achieve with Logic any more. I was so ready to dump my 1st gen Mac Pro and build an i7.. but I really want to use L9.

Eh, I am babbling.. spent a lot of time with the L9 manual today (http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/). Seems they are aware of extended range instruments finally (though I am not sure if the Tuner will do a 5 string bass.. L8's tuner would not), the new Edit tools options are closer to (the choice of having) something akin to the PT multi-tool, and it seems someone listened to complaints about how comp/takes were buggered up. Rumor has it that resource use is a pretty decent leap over L8! Wish they would have done the full compliment to VariAudio (versus *only* FlexiTime), and expanded HyperDraw to allow multiple CC "lanes."

Feel bad for PPC users... and those who bought L8 recently (NO free upgrades regardless of L8 purchase dates!! :icon_eek3: )

kdm

07-24-2009, 03:21 AM

Interesting comments on the vi forum that L9 apparently isn't 64-bit, and may not be (reading between the lines a bit there). Some apparent reasons behind that I don't think would be fair to repost here since it's 3rd hand, but not sure I see a reason unless Apple/Logic devs see Logic as a self-contained/closed app like most iApps that only need to work well enough within the OSX/Apple model. Just speculation. Don't really know what impact that has on real world use.

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 03:56 AM

I will get to feel like a customer again, instead of something that is stuck to the bottom of Steinberg's shoe. I have to say, I feel so much better having made my decision.

I hear ya Mate.. :-)

I maintain a great communication and support level with the guys from Avid/Digi here, I suppose being personal friends with the head is a help there , but any one of the guys in the operation always go above and beyond for me. Thats not to say I don't give them plenty of stick about PT when warranted , particularly LE's short comings with the track count and especially the limited PDC, but I can have that conversation with them without it turning into a mess, and I know that they not only acknowledge the qualms , they accept the criticism as justified.

With Logic, I really can't comment Mate, as the so called Apple Pro Audio representative here is someone that goes way back to the pre Apple days of iLogic, you'll know who I mean, and he is not someone I have ever been able to get on the same page with. I hope you have some other avenues for support in regards to Logic , as the forums are heavily censored , and calling Apple for support would be akin to tits on a bull. I luckily have some good resources I can call on here in Melbourne if required.

BTW: I will shortly be offering Hackintosh solutions of my i7 DAW's , to catch some of the flow on to Logic and FCP..., hey if ya can't beat em... LOL

Anyhow,

More power to you Bro, I hope the choir at N.com are reading in and seeing yet another long term , and highly respected end user forced to leave the fold..:009:

Daryl

07-24-2009, 04:43 AM

Interesting comments on the vi forum that L9 apparently isn't 64-bit, and may not be (reading between the lines a bit there).

As there are no 64bit plugs, there is no point on Logic being 64bit. Bit Bridge anyone? :D

DG

MattiasNYC

07-24-2009, 10:04 AM

BTW: I will shortly be offering Hackintosh solutions of my i7 DAW's , to catch some of the flow on to Logic and FCP..., hey if ya can't beat em... LOL

Hey, watch out for problematic legal issues though.... Just a heads up...

07-24-2009, 10:30 AM

Yes, for media files/fx. I can restrict the search to file types (within media vs. explorer's broader search filter), and just enter a portion of the expected name and it filters on the fly. Also have audition options and file format/meta data info available.

Explorer is a one-at-a-time search process - takes longer unless I'm just looking for a specific audio or project-related file and know where it is, then I'll use the import dialog or explorer (such as moving an OMF from client drive to project folder, etc).

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. You can filter your search with Explorer and find any number of files that match specific criteria. Perhaps your response here was poorly worded, or I am missing something. I don't have mediabay, so I can't comment on how well that works as opposed to it.

In the end, it is also a matter of how you organize things beforehand.

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 01:50 PM

Hey, watch out for problematic legal issues though.... Just a heads up...

I have looked into it already Mate.

All I am doing is offering an added alternate configuration service , with a legitimate copy of an O.S. Nowhere on the site does it say OSX.. :-)

I know how petty they can be , so I'll tread carefully.

I am expecting more resistance from the so called iFruit Audio specialist operations , but once the words out the genie will be out of the bottle and if they do try and hassle me, I'll weigh up my options.

Word of mouth will come into play more so if need be... :-)

I have had 1/2 a dozen enquiries in the last month or so about it , so obviously there is a market for the service provided

Captain Caveman

07-24-2009, 02:00 PM

I don't think Apple/Logic is the solution to get if avoiding the poor communication/user-interaction and slow bugfixes that blight Steinberg is the reason. Apparently they are equals in that respect.

It is annoying to see Audio Warping in the project window and multi-track warping being introduced though seeing as we have been bleating on at Steinberg for so long about it in Cubendo.

But at least Logic looks like it has got the Apple marketing department's MLSOA (Menopausal Ladies Stamp of Approval). :D

kdm

07-24-2009, 02:17 PM

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. You can filter your search with Explorer and find any number of files that match specific criteria. Perhaps your response here was poorly worded, or I am missing something. I don't have mediabay, so I can't comment on how well that works as opposed to it.

In the end, it is also a matter of how you organize things beforehand.

Yes, explorer does filter - incomplete wording on my part - but not to the focused extent you can with MB (or not as easily at least): such as meta data, boolean functions, by categories within meta data, etc - and without a lot of mousing around to make it happen as with Explorer.

The other advantage here with Mediabay is having your searched drives, folders, etc isolated to audio needs vs. general system searches. The filter also works faster in MB than explorer, at least in my experience.

LEX

07-24-2009, 02:51 PM

I have looked into it already Mate.

All I am doing is offering an added alternate configuration service , with a legitimate copy of an O.S. Nowhere on the site does it say OSX.. :-)

I know how petty they can be , so I'll tread carefully.

I am expecting more resistance from the so called iFruit Audio specialist operations , but once the words out the genie will be out of the bottle and if they do try and hassle me, I'll weigh up my options.

Word of mouth will come into play more so if need be... :-)

I have had 1/2 a dozen enquiries in the last month or so about it , so obviously there is a market for the service provided

It might be worth only mentioning "alternate OS" if desired. Please inquire for more information.

LEX

LEX

07-24-2009, 02:58 PM

As there are no 64bit plugs, there is no point on Logic being 64bit. Bit Bridge anyone? :D

DG

And You can access more than the 32 gig limit in OSX anyway.

I know a few people who are accessing 16 gigs in Logic 8.

LEX

07-24-2009, 04:30 PM

Yes, explorer does filter - incomplete wording on my part - but not to the focused extent you can with MB (or not as easily at least): such as meta data, boolean functions, by categories within meta data, etc - and without a lot of mousing around to make it happen as with Explorer.

The other advantage here with Mediabay is having your searched drives, folders, etc isolated to audio needs vs. general system searches. The filter also works faster in MB than explorer, at least in my experience.

This is what I meant by having your system properly organized to start with. I keep all of my media on specific volumes, and I am not interested in any stray files that happen to be elsewhere. Indeed, what mediabay is probably doing is keeping a database or a hash table of all entries which is why it would actually be faster. It still pays to have your media properly organized.

bartok29

07-24-2009, 06:18 PM

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 06:50 PM

And You can access more than the 32 gig limit in OSX anyway.

I know a few people who are accessing 16 gigs in Logic 8.

LEX

The hard limits imposed is by the hardware that Apple have employed having only limited slots. On single Socket Mac Pro's there are only 4 slots, on Dual 8 slots , now depending on what the largest module is, that will determine the total amount of RAM. Also, in Apples wisdom, if all slots are used the memory drops to Dual Channel..

To get to 32 GB on a Dual MAC Pro , you will need 4GB Modules, check out Apples prices for them for a laugh. Here in Oz Apple are quoting an extra $11,000.00 to go to 32GB , LOL, on the single sockets its Max 8 GB, as they do not accept 4GB modules, max there is 8GB:

Good single i7 PC boards have 6 slots , allowing 24 GB RAM, Dual have 9 per socket at 4GB per slot , 72 GB - all in Tri Channel :

I can see a crack opening here... :eusa_whistle:

It might be worth only mentioning "alternate OS" if desired. Please inquire for more information.

One step ahead of ya.., check this out Here (http://www.aavimt.com.au/osx86.htm)

kdm

07-24-2009, 06:58 PM

This is what I meant by having your system properly organized to start with. I keep all of my media on specific volumes, and I am not interested in any stray files that happen to be elsewhere.

Who said otherwise? No way I'm going to open Explorer and click around folders with a client waiting for me to find the right transition sweep or fx.

Try searching in WinExplorer in a single search for a mono 48k car door open followed by footsteps on pavement, then stereo exterior street walla without clicking the "Search" button, setting up the search locations, or clicking any folders, either at the start or between searches.

That said, dedicated fx database apps even better suited for this kind of thing than even Media Bay, though it is convenient to have it integrated into the app.

If explorer does all you need, then that's all you need.

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 07:06 PM

Just thinking out loud..

Having a browse thru some of the L9 threads at other forums, and noticed that despite Apples less then stellar reputation for support , there is still nowhere near the angst from the end users that is displayed towards our other German friends , to me that is quite telling.. :eusa_think:

Also the amount of activity the threads generate in such a short time compared to Cubendo is telling as well..

07-24-2009, 07:11 PM

No way I'm going to open Explorer and click around folders with a client waiting for me to find the right transition sweep or fx.

If explorer does all you need, then that's all you need.

Understood.

I don't need explorer or mediabay. I have a near photographic memory. I'm also not entertaining clients in my humble studio. Cheers. :icon_cool:

kdm

07-24-2009, 07:13 PM

kdm

07-24-2009, 07:15 PM

I have a near photographic memory

Seriously? That's cool.

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 07:32 PM

But the question is, does it come from the type of user and the popularity/loyalty to the app, or from Apple? Does anyone actually get support from Apple without paying for Applecare?

I have also seen quite a few comments on the 0 support aspect of owning Logic, and the fact that progress is moving at a glacial pace. I think most Logic users simply realize there is no point in even complaining since no one is listening - just be a normal Apple customer, go to the Apple Store and buy what's made available to you if you like it, don't buy it if you don't. That's the only real choice you have with Apple anyway - to click or not to click.

I think both you and D have valid points..

Support for Logic locally falls on the Dealers , Apple are simply iBox movers and allow even the smallest iPod dealer equal access, which is ridiculous compared to what was required to be an Emagic Dealer back when it was an independent entity, with a real support network.

The Logic Fanboism is definitely stonger , even back in the heyday when it was dual platform, the zealots on PC were just as loud, let me tell you , but it was mostly coming from the coolaide brigade, I agree.

Locally there was a distinct culture entrenched with the reps here as well that would basically attempt to tarnish those working in retail that didn't sing the company line. Man I was targeted mercilessly back in the late 90's, first for being a PeeCee guy, and then secondly when Emagic started kicking arse on PC, for being a Cubase guy. The end users got caught up in the bullshite superiority complex being spoon fed , mind you 99% still to this day wouldn't even know what an environment is - which was one of the huge selling points of Logic being so superior to Cubase, ohh, that and the TDM support, but thats a whole other thread..

Man, I still have scars just thinking back... :-(

07-24-2009, 07:33 PM

Seriously? That's cool.

Seriously. :icon_cool:

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 07:35 PM

Quick heads up,

Changed the name of the thread and merged the 2 Logic 9 threads together...

LEX

07-24-2009, 07:58 PM

I have a near photographic memory

So do I.

LEX

TAFKAT

07-24-2009, 08:34 PM

.. spoke to soon about the natives not being restless on other forums.., I am about 6 pages into the G.S thread and its turning it a steaming pile.... LOL

shanabit

07-25-2009, 01:20 AM

I had Logic 8 here, sold it. Lacking in many areas to me

1. No PDC for External Hardware (That killed it for me)
2. No volume adjust on the region itself, no handles like Cubase
3. Audio editing was convoluted
4. Destructive Sample editor
5. No one home at the mothership
6. Glacial speed on updates, I think only two in over two years

etc.

paulwr

07-25-2009, 01:44 AM

So do I.

LEX

and so do .... uh... what were we talking about again?

-Paul

kdm

07-25-2009, 01:52 AM

and so do .... uh... what were we talking about again?

-Paul

Having a Logic-based photographic memory of Emagic, Windows Explorer and Steinberg before Steve Jobs' return to see iApps take over Apple.

Jonesy

07-25-2009, 05:30 AM

just be a normal Apple customer, go to the Apple Store and buy what's made available to you if you like it, don't buy it if you don't. That's the only real choice you have with Apple anyway - to click or not to click.

As opposed to Microsoft?

Jonesy

07-25-2009, 05:33 AM

5. No one home at the mothership
6. Glacial speed on updates, I think only two in over two years

etc.

That's still double the rate of Steinberg.

TAFKAT

07-25-2009, 06:38 AM

As opposed to Microsoft?

Since when have Microsoft acquired professional DAW and Video Editing operations that had established , respected , professional support networks, and turned them into consumer level, box mover blackholes ?

I must have missed those.. :eusa_think:

Steve, how is it that if anyone dares say anything south of positive in regrads to Apple, you automatically try and compare it to Microsoft, where s the correlation in the context of the discussion here.. ?

Daryl

07-25-2009, 07:31 AM

I hate Apple. I also hate Microsoft. However, as Microsoft have never forced me to buy one of their inferior computers just to run their OS, I think that I hate them less than Apple. :wink:

D

Jonesy

07-25-2009, 07:53 AM

Since when have Microsoft acquired professional DAW and Video Editing operations that had established , respected , professional support networks, and turned them into consumer level, box mover blackholes ?

I must have missed those.. :eusa_think:

Steve, how is it that if anyone dares say anything south of positive in regrads to Apple, you automatically try and compare it to Microsoft, where s the correlation in the context of the discussion here.. ?

I am simply drawing the comparison that neither Apple nor Microsoft are particularly responsible to customer input, they are both ivory towers that both expect the customer to conform with their paradigms when it comes to the "computing experience". I don't regard Apple as a cuddly or friendly company at all.

Vin with all due respect (and I do respect your knowledge and opinions), I completely disagree with your contention that Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro are now merely a "consumer level" box moving black hole operation any more than most large software companies. Your own deep biases toward Apple are showing here, I am currently working with several multi platinum winning artists using Logic as their main DAW.

If Apple has taken Logic and gutted it and turned it into a consumer toy as you contend, are you prepared to stand by your statement and state here on this forum that Logic Pro 8 or 9 are less professionally useable products than Logic was when Emagic owned it? Are you saying that Logic 8/9 and Final Cut Pro are "consumer" level and not really useable for professional work since Apple took over? I would also disagree with your contention that Emagic had a particularly "respected professional support network" when it was around. I bought Logic 4.x, I thought it was a very poor second to Nuendo 1, and I did not find support here for logic particularly stellar at all. At the time, Steinberg, for example, was much better supported in this country. Logic's upgrade path and pricing was also almost as bad as Waves is now. Apple has done away with all of the tortuous copy protection, and that is another blessing for all artists, pro or otherwise.

Basically, what I am saying is that I doubt that you will get much agreement in the music industry with your idea that Logic and FCP are poorly supported consumer level products.

07-25-2009, 09:25 AM

I hate Apple. I also hate Microsoft. However, as Microsoft have never forced me to buy one of their inferior computers just to run their OS, I think that I hate them less than Apple. :wink:

D

Neither Apple nor Microsoggy have ever forced ME to buy anything... :smash:

TAFKAT

07-25-2009, 01:07 PM

Vin with all due respect (and I do respect your knowledge and opinions), I completely disagree with your contention that Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro are now merely a "consumer level" box moving black hole operation any more than most large software companies. Your own deep biases toward Apple are showing here, I am currently working with several multi platinum winning artists using Logic as their main DAW.

Whoa there partner..

I am talking only about Apples support and marketing approach to the customers , not that the clients using the products are consumer level or the products themselves are that , read it again.. !!

Where Logic used to be only available thru qualified Pro Audio Dealers that had some qualification and ability to be able to support the product past moving the box, that went out the window years ago when Apple opened it up to any 3rd party iLife box movers, at the same margin, totally screwing the more established dealers in the process, and wondering why some dealers were less than enthusiastic about selling and supporting as they did in the past.

We also won't mention totally and utterly screwing the long term users who had spent thousands of $ on the application and the added instruments and plugins over the years, to see the investment totally pissed out the window when Apple bundled the whole lot into a package worth collectively a fraction of what they had invested , at the same time removing the copy protection as you stated, which in turn simply made it available to anyone with a serial and an Apple computer .

In essence Apple couldn't care less whether you actually buy it or not, its simply a loss leader for them, as long as you buy a computer to run it. Tell me that isn't a consumer box mover mentality.

You may accuse me of a bias, but you are equally as touchy about anything to do with Apple.

Steve , we have known each other a long time , and have a great mutual respect for each other, but Man, we just keep butting heads on this, and if you read my post again, I never said anything about the end users, only Apple.

My opinion about how Apple regards and treats the client base is based purely on Logic end users feedback , both from personal experience and from chatter. Go have a read thru that Logic 9 thread at Gearslutz to get an idea how many feel about the support level since Apple acquired the application. I have several close friends who are long term Logic users, that are scathing about what has happened since the acquisition as well.

Re your local experience, Mate, read thru my earlier post, we are talking about the same individual(s) , I never stated the local guys were stellar, but Emagics support globally was a hell of a lot better than Apples , you are the only person I have ever heard state otherwise, but of course are free to have that opinion. You will find however little consensus amongst long term users , IMO.

:009:

kdm

07-25-2009, 01:28 PM

As opposed to Microsoft?

No hardware dongle with Microsoft - it's just an OS. No requirement to buy a certain hardware system to run it. More options for both config, quality and support on the hardware side as well.

zvenx

07-25-2009, 01:30 PM

has anyone ever 'won' this debate? :-)
stick with what you like .

rsp

kdm

07-25-2009, 02:06 PM

has anyone ever 'won' this debate? :-)

There have been rumors, but nothing confirmed. Those rumors were apparently traced back to a Macbook Pro on wifi at a Starbucks in Cupertino, California, so the accuracy is somewhat in question.... :wink:

zvenx

07-25-2009, 02:46 PM

lol
rsp

LEX

07-25-2009, 04:24 PM

:pop_corn:

kdm

07-25-2009, 06:14 PM

:pop_corn:

You've been eating a lot of popcorn lately. Might have put you on the low cal popcorn-smilicon plan. lol

TAFKAT

07-25-2009, 07:16 PM

No hardware dongle with Microsoft - it's just an OS. No requirement to buy a certain hardware system to run it. More options for both config, quality and support on the hardware side as well.

And there it is in nutshell, as Daryl pointed out as well..:wink:

The so called division between the Mac hardware and the PC equivalents is really nothing more than a purposely imposed limitation by Apple choosing to use EFI over a BIOS , to try and give the impression that they have chosen the more advanced and superior of the 2, when in fact it is the opposite in many cases. I am sure we had this discussion elsewhere here very recently.

BTW: EFI was developed by Intel for the Itanium, the only reason it isn't more widely used and excepted is that Itanium for all intensive purposes was an Itanic, Microsoft supplied a specific build of XP/Server 2003 with the required low level EFI component, bootcamp and Hackintoshes simply use a script to emulate the required EFI (http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/EFI) component , there is no voodoo past that running OSX on any system other than a Mac.

This is drifting off topic, so where were we again..

Oh yeh, iLogic 9.0...

:009:

Jonesy

07-25-2009, 07:37 PM

Re your local experience, Mate, read thru my earlier post, we are talking about the same individual(s)

:009:

:D

TerryG

07-25-2009, 09:41 PM

...the only reason it isn't more widely used and excepted is that Itanium for all intensive purposes was an Itanic...

:009:

translated from Australian:
"...the only reason it isn't more widely used and accepted is that Itanium for all intents and purposes was an Itanic..."

:wink:

and back to the topic, as far as iLogic and iApple in the iWorld goes...
iDongivashit.

paulwr

07-25-2009, 10:47 PM

LOL! +1 (...... at least I don't care today..................)

-Paul

TAFKAT

07-25-2009, 10:53 PM

translated from Australian:

Crikey Mate, give a bloke a fair suck of the sauce bottle , wil ya.., eh.. :D

Jonesy

07-26-2009, 05:43 AM

Once I get Logic 9 up and running I will let you know how it goes... As far a support, I guess that the best way to get good support is to buy from a good retailer, another reason to buy stuff locally and look after your local shops, so that they can be there for you when you need help.

In Oz we had Music Link importing Steinberg, and they were fantastic with support. Once the product was taken from them and moved to Yamaha I have just assumed that there is now no tech support. I rang Yamaha once out of curiosity, and was amused at the options from the phone robot, nothing about pro-audio or software, but if I wanted a boom box or home theatre setup I was in the right place.

Hope you get "The OS that we don't mention" running reliably in custom hardware Vin, I would be very interested. As much as you think that I am besotted with Apple, it is actually only Windows that I can't stomach, but OSX running on a custom hardware rig sounds really exciting for a lot of reasons.

colony nofi

07-26-2009, 11:42 PM

Vin - you been hanging with Mr Rudd with lines like that? :D

Crikey Mate, give a bloke a fair suck of the sauce bottle , wil ya.., eh..

TAFKAT

07-27-2009, 08:27 AM

Hope you get "The OS that we don't mention" running reliably in custom hardware Vin, I would be very interested. As much as you think that I am besotted with Apple, it is actually only Windows that I can't stomach, but OSX running on a custom hardware rig sounds really exciting for a lot of reasons.

Hey Steve,

I am giving it a good go.

From all of the research I have done , the X58 i7 systems are basically drop in compatible with the single socket Pro's, so once you navigate the EFI bootloader , they run pretty much as the real deal, no hacked kernels required, a standard vanilla install so you can update the O.S if need be, etc.

Where its really interesting for me at the under bonnet is that by being able to disable the EIST ( standard speed stepping) and C1halt state ( die level power / clock stepping) at the BIOS level, I should be able to get better scaling in Cubendo on OSX, which suffers quite badly due to EFI/OSX being unable to control it correctly. I could be sitting on a golden egg here for Cubendo /OSX users.

I'll report back once I get some numbers up.

BTW: Logic actually has low level API access to control the speed stepping at application level, something that Steinberg do not have access to, home ground advantage there , they also know where the bodies are buried in regards to how many physical cores OSX can efficiently multi-thread across , and they limit the threading there as well, its just shy of 8... :eusa_whistle:

Re the local support, that has always been the way, and I bet you'll get great support from the dealer in question, I have a fair idea who you are referring to in Sydney , the state of the so called official support is someting better left unspoken...

TAFKAT

07-27-2009, 08:30 AM

Vin - you been hanging with Mr Rudd with lines like that? :D

Bloody Ruddy.., pickle me grand mother, he'll be throwing some prawns on the barbie next... :D

Captain Caveman

07-28-2009, 02:08 PM

I could be sitting on a golden egg here for Cubendo /OSX users.
That is really interesting on several levels.

If Apple are not disclosing these performance enhancing features from 3rd party software developers to make themselves look good and increase sales of their software they have royally screwed themselves. That is the type of stuff that the European Union gets involved in with hefty fines. Not to mention the 3rd party software developers.

Or maybe that's just my permagrump perspective on it, it's hard for me to tell. :icon_mad:

Btw, on the subject of Hackintosh etc, I am right in saying that OSX has read-only access to NTFS drives but can RW on a FAT-32 drive that is shared with Windows?

LUpton

07-28-2009, 06:26 PM

OSX stock on a Mac can read NTFS, but not write to it. FAT32 access is standard (think about all the USB stick drives...)

That being said, certain hack distros of 'the OS that shall not be named' include the ntfs3g kernel extension plugin as an install option, for full NTFS RW capability.

Works fine multi-booting on my Dell 390, E6300 CPU, 2 GB RAM, and the only HFS+ drive is the OSX boot partition. All the rest- audio, video and ext ESATA-are all NTFS. I have N4 Mac and Reaper Mac installed as a test. Not a speed demon, but interesting, nonetheless.

YMMV.

TAFKAT

07-28-2009, 07:43 PM

Hey LUpton,

Thanks for the heads up for the ntfs3g kernel extension..

@ Captain ,

If by disabling the EIST and C1Halt state in BIOS helps the scaling of Cubendo, etc on OSx86 , it will definitely create a bit of a fire storm.., looking forward to fanning it if that is the case.. :D

I am also expecting and prepared for some local specialist Apple Dealers to send in the troops against me..

Captain Caveman

07-28-2009, 08:53 PM

Yes thanks LUpton for that info, it's good to know.

Good luck with it all Vin, look forward to hearing more when you're ready. :)

Softy

07-28-2009, 11:49 PM

...Btw, on the subject of Hackintosh etc, I am right in saying that OSX has read-only access to NTFS drives but can RW on a FAT-32 drive that is shared with Windows?

Yes that's true on the "regular" OS X. But keep in mind that not all NTFS formatted drives are the same. I just connected (to a Mac) an NTFS drive taken from a failed server (Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition) which I had previously been able to read when it had been connected to an XP system (before I could read it on that XP system, I had had to do an "import foreign disk" kind of operation in Disk Management), but couldn't read it on the Mac. I have since reconnected it to that XP system, and can see it fine again on that. Now I notice in the Disk Management pane, that it is a Dynamic Disk, not a Basic Disk. So I suspect that the Mac can't read an NTFS disk if it's a Dynamic Disk. I'll let you know what further "NTFS on Mac" adventures I get into with this, if you're interested. I want to play around with that NTFS3G kernel extension that LUpton was talking about too.

Captain Caveman

07-29-2009, 07:44 AM

That's all good information Softy. I'm definately interested in hearing any other discoveries of this nature. Personally I have a simple setup with 1 OS drive in an internal drive caddy and 3 other internals for audio and samples so I don't think I'll come across any major strangities that others don't come across.

Oh, on the subject of Apple and it's anti-competitive practises I have just read this post on Cubase.net in reply to a question about why this guys organisation uses Cubase less and less every year in favour of Logic (for midi) .....

http://forum.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=888168#888168

This can't be an isolated incident. This also clearly isn't a practise that any other software developer or PC hardware provider could indulge in and whereas the gap between Windows and OSX in terms of market share are big, Apple is actually on a fairly even keel with a lot of PC building companies (except for Dell and Compaq) and this gives them a really unfair advantage. Coming to think about it, even on just the OS side of things and forgetting about hardware sales and bundling paid-for software for a moment - when Microsoft are getting punished for bundling an internet browser where are the sanctions against Apple for Safari and Garageband etc?

edit:

Here's another link to an official video re CPU usage in Logic....

http://www.nedwebserver.com/ned-web/logicfirstlook&popup&asv=2

.... is it just me or are those "CPU meters" bouncing around a little too much? If the load balancing between cores is in fact limited to less than 8 then this CPU meter is another bit of iFraud made to jump around like computery VU meters.

Softy

07-29-2009, 10:31 AM

...whereas the gap between Windows and OSX in terms of market share are big, Apple is actually on a fairly even keel with a lot of PC building companies (except for Dell and Compaq) and this gives them a really unfair advantage. Coming to think about it, even on just the OS side of things and forgetting about hardware sales and bundling paid-for software for a moment - when Microsoft are getting punished for bundling an internet browser where are the sanctions against Apple for Safari and Garageband etc?

In order for Apple or anybody else to have an antitrust case brought against them, they'd have to portrayed as having used their position as a monopoly in an unfair way, to force people to buy their products. Since Apple has no monopoly, that would be hard to do. For the foreseeable future, they will be regarded as a small "also ran" company, trying to get a bigger foothold by chipping away at things like browser and OS market share. Meanwhile, they'll continue to kick ass in their real markets, with things like like iTunes and iPods.

Daryl

07-29-2009, 10:38 AM

In order for Apple or anybody else to have an antitrust case brought against them, they'd have to portrayed as having used their position as a monopoly in an unfair way, to force people to buy their products. Since Apple has no monopoly, that would be hard to do. For the foreseeable future, they will be regarded as a small "also ran" company, trying to get a bigger foothold by chipping away at things like browser and OS market share. Meanwhile, they'll continue to kick ass in their real markets, with things like like iTunes and iPods.
Apple certainly isn't safe from an antitrust case. They clearly breach guidelines in various areas. A couple, are requiring you (or trying to require you) to buy their hardware in order to use their OS, and also selling a sequencer that is in competition with other developers, but using inside information and selling at a discount in order to give their own product an edge. Which neatly brings us back to the subject of this thread. :D

D

Softy

07-29-2009, 11:05 AM

Apple certainly isn't safe from an antitrust case. They clearly breach guidelines in various areas. A couple, are requiring you (or trying to require you) to buy their hardware in order to use their OS, and also selling a sequencer that is in competition with other developers, but using inside information and selling at a discount in order to give their own product an edge. Which neatly brings us back to the subject of this thread. :D

D
Well it's not really worth our time to debate the legal merits of these potential cases. But even though I am free to file a lawsuit against Apple or anybody else, claiming anything I want, and then trying to make a convincing case, it would be my position that Apple cannot be successfully portrayed as having monopolies in the areas of operating systems, computer hardware, or sequencers. And it is also my position that it would be required in order to win any such case, to legally establish that the defendant company did in fact have such a monopoly and was using it unfairly to force me to buy their products. The "guidelines" you mention apply only to such situations. You or I can breach those guidelines all we want, until we gain a monopolistic market share, and can unfairly coerce buyers.

LUpton

07-29-2009, 04:33 PM

Hey LUpton,

Thanks for the heads up for the ntfs3g kernel extension..

No problem. I'm surprised you didn't run into this during your Linux excursions. That's where it came from...

I am also expecting and prepared for some local specialist Apple Dealers to send in the troops against me..

Gotta love the iNazis...

Just remember, Insanely Mac forum (google it...) is your friend for all things OSX86, if you can stand the c.net-like signal to noise...

Larry

TAFKAT

07-29-2009, 06:08 PM

Just remember, Insanely Mac forum (google it...) is your friend for all things OSX86, if you can stand the c.net-like signal to noise...

Larry

Hey Larry,

Thanks for that Mate , I have already been over there scouring some related threads to specific hardware I am running with , and weighing up the various options to tackle the adventure..

Haven't really got too far into the s/n as yet, just staying focused on the tutorials for now, I'll no doubt dip my toe in further in future tho.. LOL

Where were we, oh yeh, Logic, and of course iFruit being immune to any monopolistic behaviour because they simply aren't big enough to make a splash, which of course makes it a all O.K.

How can M.S bundling IE with their O.S be any more monopolistic than Apple bundling Safari is beyond my comprehension, let alone all of the other areas mentioned.., but then again, maybe I'm biased... :eusa_whistle:

I digress,

How about that Logic 9, eh...

Softy

07-30-2009, 02:07 AM

...Where were we, oh yeh, Logic, and of course iFruit being immune to any monopolistic behaviour because they simply aren't big enough to make a splash, which of course makes it a all O.K.

How can M.S bundling IE with their O.S be any more monopolistic than Apple bundling Safari is beyond my comprehension, let alone all of the other areas mentioned.., but then again, maybe I'm biased... :eusa_whistle:

It's simple really. In one case, the company has a monopoly. In the other case, the company doesn't have a monopoly. It can't be made much clearer than that.

There is a difference between monopolistic coercion of a market, and simply doing things that aren't "all O.K."

If this really is beyond your comprehension, I'm surprised. Would you say that it would be just as monopolistic for me to bundle a browser that I wrote, with an OS that I wrote, given that I had a small market share?

Captain Caveman

07-30-2009, 06:49 AM

Softy

07-30-2009, 09:50 AM

It's fair to say though that since the Intel Macs were introduced 3 years ago, one of the reasons Microsoft is still in a virtual monopoly position is because Apple aren't allowing OSX to be installed on PCs. OSX is the only viable alternative all round OS to the average user after all.

Yeah, that's a very interesting point. And I think that it's a real shame that there aren't more good alternative OS choices available to mainstream computer buyers. But it isn't illegal for a relatively small player (in terms of market share) to decide that it will only bundle its software with its own hardware, whereas it is illegal for a company with a monopoly position to use that position to control buyers' options in terms of (for instance) what other companies are allowed to bundle.

I'd argue that the issue of whether or not a company (monopoly or otherwise) should or shouldn't be permitted to bundle its own web browser with its own OS misses the main point. And my arguments, opinions, etc. fell on the side of Microsoft in that debate. They still do. Antitrust laws exist to protect us buyers from unfair coercion and market control by companies that have grown to the point of becoming monopolies, not to define what constitutes good or bad behavior on the part of a company in general. Nor did antitrust legislation come to exist to force smaller players to do things to compensate for the results of the moves that larger players have made.

Daryl

07-30-2009, 10:26 AM

Yeah, that's a very interesting point. And I think that it's a real shame that there aren't more good alternative OS choices available to mainstream computer buyers. But it isn't illegal for a relatively small player (in terms of market share) to decide that it will only bundle its software with its own hardware, whereas it is illegal for a company with a monopoly position to use that position to control buyers' options in terms of (for instance) what other companies are allowed to bundle.

I'd argue that the issue of whether or not a company (monopoly or otherwise) should or shouldn't be permitted to bundle its own web browser with its own OS misses the main point. And my arguments, opinions, etc. fell on the side of Microsoft in that debate. They still do. Antitrust laws exist to protect us buyers from unfair coercion and market control by companies that have grown to the point of becoming monopolies, not to define what constitutes good or bad behavior on the part of a company in general. Nor did antitrust legislation come to exist to force smaller players to do things to compensate for the results of the moves that larger players have made.
As long as OSX isn't sold separately from the hardware, that isn't a problem. However, if it's sold as a separate product, there is no way that Apple can get away with telling you what machine you can install it on. The other thing is that by allowing Windows to be installed on a Mac, but not allowing other PC manufacturers to install OSX gives an unfair advantage to Apple. Therefore Windows should not be an option on a Mac. Even though it works better. :wink:

D

kdm

07-30-2009, 11:48 AM

The anti-trust laws are imo, too narrowly defined to *only* address a market majority holder. What if there are only 2 players in the market, and both have unique positions? Technically, only the majority player is scrutinized, but similar to a monopoly situation, consumer choices can be just as limited if both companies separate themselves enough. This is the Apple/MS situation.

They really aren't competing directly - one makes an OS, the other makes computers and tech devices.

Apple makes it appear they are direct competitors with the Mac/PC ads, but until they sell their OS and hardware separately, they are the only computer company making a proprietary platform. That makes them unique, and a monopoly of that product type (and probably the reason bootcamp was released - with that "technicality" of being able to run Windows too, they seem to be averting some anti-trust rumblings).

Technically the iPod should be open to alternate operating systems, but since anti-trust doesn't seem to apply to hardware products - only software (and really only because MS was sued) - Apple gets a free pass and simply hides in MS's shadow, while living on a completely different business model.

That really isn't good for consumers. I think for the most part the courts don't view the computer as a unique product, so Apple's Macs are just packaging for OSX in their eyes, and as long as MS sells more copies of Windows, Apple gets to do whatever it wants.

TAFKAT

07-30-2009, 05:45 PM

It's simple really. In one case, the company has a monopoly. In the other case, the company doesn't have a monopoly. It can't be made much clearer than that...

If this really is beyond your comprehension, I'm surprised. Would you say that it would be just as monopolistic for me to bundle a browser that I wrote, with an OS that I wrote, given that I had a small market share?

?

And Apple doesn't try and impose a monopoly in areas ?

Whats beyond my comprehension is how bundling IE is any more monopolistic, are they stopping you from using another browser ?

Take off those Apple rosy coloured glasses , and Man what ever M.S did to you, get over the glitch Mate !! :sleeping:

@ Daryl,

They do sell the O.S separately , its exactly how I have obtained it , but they still try and legally bind you an EULA that you cannot install it on anything but their dedicated Hardware.., what a pathetic joke, but it is what it is, and I have even had some myopic Mac friends read me the riot act that I would dare even think of trying to circumvent it.. ??

Pass the cool aide please.. :icon_rolleyes:

@ Dedric,

+1 .., right on the head.. :wink:

Daryl

07-30-2009, 06:01 PM

?
@ Daryl,

They do sell the O.S separately , its exactly how I have obtained it , but they still try and legally bind you an EULA that you cannot install it on anything but their dedicated Hardware.., what a pathetic joke, but it is what it is, and I have even had some myopic Mac friends read me the riot act that I would dare even think of trying to circumvent it.. ??

Pass the cool aide please.. :icon_rolleyes:

And this is one reason why the EULA is illegal, and in practice probably unenforcable. If the software is tied to the hardware, they can't sell it as a separate entity.

Actually, if I was a sequencer developer and decided to develop for OSX, I would be pretty pissed off that Apple owns Logic. That is unfair to all other developers. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere along the line Apple is forced to sell Logic. I would imagine that the currently superior performance to all other OSX sequencers would disappear, and the price would double.

D

TAFKAT

07-30-2009, 07:34 PM

... I would imagine that the currently superior performance to all other OSX sequencers would disappear, and the price would double.

..... in a blink of an eye... :icon_yes:

Softy

07-30-2009, 09:50 PM

?

And Apple doesn't try and impose a monopoly in areas ?

Whats beyond my comprehension is how bundling IE is any more monopolistic, are they stopping you from using another browser ?

Take off those Apple rosy coloured glasses , and Man what ever M.S did to you, get over the glitch Mate !! :sleeping:

I guess you're right about one thing. Perhaps you can't comprehend it. This Windows VS Mac religion thing seems to stir you up to the point where logical discourse isn't even much of a factor. The simple fact is that it doesn't matter (from an antitrust point of view) what Apple does, or what I do when it comes to bundling a browser with an OS (or anything else). It only matters what a company with a monopoly does.

What I don't quite get is why you think that I have on "Apple rosy colored glasses," or am a Kool Aid drinking Mac kinda guy. I have said before that I spent many years (since about the time that Microsoft came into existence) on the other side of the fence, have sold mostly MS-centric systems, designed and manufactured hardware, wrote system software, multiuser application software, etc. And until recently I've never been a Mac person. And Microsoft hasn't done anything to me (other than what they've done to everyone else). The reason that I have switched to OS X as my primary platform is just because I like it better (and I admit that I really get a smile out of telling ex-clients that I have switched, and don't remember a damn thing about Windows). You seem to be unable or unwilling to get this simple point. I don't come to this as a wide-eyed, Mac-worshiping computer neophyte. I've switched to the Mac, knowing what I'm doing. It doesn't have anything to do with Apple, Kool Aid, or anything other than what I think will work best for me in my situation. And also, until Apple switched to the Intel platform, I hadn't become interested in using Macs as my main computers. Once they did that, I figured that I could run Windows on them if I wanted to. After using them a little (under OS X), I basically said "Holy shit, these are pretty neat." And I really enjoyed all the time I saved by not designing or configuring them.

As for why I'm tired of dealing with Microsoft, I really haven't enjoyed the constant renaming and abandonment of technologies, the ever increasing number of useless "products" etc. that I have had to live with for 30 or so years while being married to Microsoft development tools, OSs and applications (especially their server applications), nor have I liked any of their marketing programs, OEM programs or just about anything else that they've been involved in. And much of this time, I've been a close friend/drinking buddy of some of the top guys, worked with their PR company, etc. I can only imagine how much it must suck for some people to have to deal with them.

I'd really like it around here a lot better if you would ease up on that tendency of yours, to have such a knee-jerk reaction whenever I express a preference for the OS X platform (or even make a point about what the meaning of the word monopoly is). I'm not infatuated with Apple. But if I were, I certainly wouldn't be dissuaded by your frothing about it. You certainly won't see me jumping on your obvious preference for Windows (even though I think that's misguided), just because I don't like it.

Softy

07-30-2009, 11:02 PM

TAFKAT

07-30-2009, 11:26 PM

I guess you're right about one thing. Perhaps you can't comprehend it...

Save it Mate..

While you keep accusing me of having an issue with comprehension, you keep polishing the same turd over and over again. Who exactly do you think is interested ?

So again you take this as an opportunity to launch into another bullshite anti M.S rant.., get over the glitch Mate, and understand one thing, I couldn't give a rats arse about M.S , that is something you cannot seem to get thru your scon. I also couldn't care less how much you are enjoying the OSX experience, all I am saying is stop repeating the same rant over and over again.

So you are loving the iFruit, Check.., I am a misguided fool for daring to prefer Windows... , Check... :sleeping:

Jonesy

07-31-2009, 06:18 AM

Daryl

07-31-2009, 06:39 AM

TAFKAT

07-31-2009, 08:03 AM

If it was an antitrust violation to tie your hardware to your own operating system then everyone from washing machine manufacturers to DSP plug-in boxes such as the TC Powercore would be in violation.

Hey Steve,

Not the same thing Mate, there is no such thing as Apple Computer Hardware.. :wink:

Intel CPU / OEM Intel Chipset motherboards / Channelwell OEM PSU's , 3rd party memory / HD's / optical / video cards, etc, etc, it could just as easily be a Dell or HP, as they use the same OEM/ODM's. The only difference is the EFI , which was developed by Intel for the Itanium. OSX is no more unique than Unix , Linux or Solaris, all which happen to run cross platform without the b.s., its not the same thing as software coded for a dedicated FPGA or DSP.

Softy

07-31-2009, 02:22 PM

Save it Mate..

While you keep accusing me of having an issue with comprehension, you keep polishing the same turd over and over again. Who exactly do you think is interested ?

So again you take this as an opportunity to launch into another bullshite anti M.S rant.., get over the glitch Mate, and understand one thing, I couldn't give a rats arse about M.S , that is something you cannot seem to get thru your scon. I also couldn't care less how much you are enjoying the OSX experience, all I am saying is stop repeating the same rant over and over again.

So you are loving the iFruit, Check.., I am a misguided fool for daring to prefer Windows... , Check... :sleeping:

I didn't bring up the thing about your comprehension - you did. I only agreed with it. No, you're still missing my point, which is that I want you to quit reacting to my posts. I especially don't want to hear any of your opinions or comments about any of my opinions or comments when they aren't addressed to you. That's the only thing that I wish you could get into your head.

I have no interest in your opinions on subjects like Windows VS Mac, except where there's a Cubendo related issue that somebody has asked about. I don't jump on your pro Windows comments. And I want you to stop addressing my comments, whether they are pro Mac, pro OS X, or simply of a more abstract nature (such as the meaning of the word monopoly). Your posts about technical matters pertaining to systems and benchmarks are in fact of some interest, not that I'm likely to utilize any of that information since I'll probably keep Nuendo, etc. on my present Windows platforms until I switch to an OS X-based DAW.

This is a forum about a cross-platform DAW and related topics. I expect to be able to talk to other people here about such things as why I have liked one platform better, if I so desire. Certainly I should be able to engage in a conversation about what the meaning of the word monopoly is, using the most appropriate example in the world. I expect to be able to do so without having you jump in to try to stomp the point into the ground whenever the opportunity presents itself.

So once again, just stay out of it. If somebody wants to talk to you about any of this, that's their prerogative. I don't. And I don't want you to talk to me about it either, or comment on it when I'm talking to others about it. If you can't do that, then just rename the forum TAFKAT.com, and we'll all just talk about whatever it is that you think should be allowed to be talked about here (at least whoever wants to still hang around).

TAFKAT

07-31-2009, 05:35 PM

I didn't bring up the thing about your comprehension - you did. I only agreed with it. No, you're still missing my point, which is that I want you to quit reacting to my posts. I especially don't want to hear any of your opinions or comments about any of my opinions or comments when they aren't addressed to you. That's the only thing that I wish you could get into your head.

Why are you still persisting with this when its obvious we will never get on the same page in regards to who is missing who's points.. !!

Also in regards to reacting to posts, go back and have a reread of this thread and see who reacted to what , there were numerous different dialogues being engaged civilly before you sprayed your now typical diatribe into the space, so again, spare me the hysterics about me targeting you. I simply stated an opinion on how bundling a browser ( which is what the EU demanded Microsoft remove in the E version of Win7 ) constitutes more of a monopoly for one over the other, you are the one who reacted and started targeting me with your now familiar recital.

Its simple really, stop peppering any and all threads with your non related anti m.s bullshite and we will be fine, better yet, start a specific thread in the soapbox and knock yourself out.. :sleeping:

This is a cross platform audio related forum, this thread is mainly about Logic, what have you contributed to the above ?

Nothing !!!

There is also an ongoing dialogue with numerous members in regards to other Apple related subject matters like O.S licensing/hardware , etc, without this blind minded butting of heads , why do you think that is , actually scrap that, it'll only end in another long winded recital.. !!

Maybe its you who should take note of staying out of conversations that are of no interest or concern.

BTW: Save your anaemic threats and ad hominems.., I for one will not miss you around here, as you have not contributed one iota in regards to anything to do with Cubendo or even vaguely of interest audio wise..

You have an issue with me personally , take it to P.M.

TAFKAT

10-13-2009, 04:54 PM

Blowing off the cobwebs and swinging this thread back on topic.

Logic 9.02 released. Here (http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/application_updates/logicpro902.html?aosid=p204&siteid=1503186&program_id=2554&tduid=2cc7a449f94f7f6c48faa9d799be5968)

What’s New in this Version
This update improves overall stability and provides numerous fixes and enhancements. Issues addressed include:

- Flex Markers can align & snap to MIDI notes
- Performing a punch-in recording with Replace Mode now behaves correctly
- The I/O plug-in adds an option for latency measurement
- TDM plug-ins now behave as expected. (Only affects users with Pro Tools HD audio hardware.)

The update is recommended for all users of Logic Pro 9.

LEX

10-13-2009, 05:02 PM

Overall that seems to be pretty quick in updates, or am I wrong?

What has it been, 6 months?

LEX

TAFKAT

10-13-2009, 05:15 PM

The first post on this thread was 27th of July, so its not even 3 months.

Mind you reading in at G.S, the 2 updates have not addressed a lot of what the end users are bitching about, so it maybe all smoke and mirrors , or then again, it could be that they will just keep rolling out these smaller increment hotfixes, which is still cool..

At least there is some movement at the station..

I'll knuckle down and get some Logic Numbers and reports up shortly, I have some interesting details and insight into Logics threading and buffering mechanisms to share, just dotting some i's.

shanabit

10-15-2009, 06:23 PM

Is this the newly coded Logic that was promised for SL or just some bandages on the frame? I think Logic 8 got 2 updates for the whole cycle in 2 years

Yeah I sold it

TAFKAT

01-13-2010, 09:06 AM

Logic 9.1 released : Here (http://www.apple.com/confirm/logicstudio/osx.html)

Some key new features/fixes

* - Support for 64-bit native mode
* - Compatibility with 64-bit Audio Unit plug-ins
* - File names with over 32 characters are now supported
* - Samples are now mapped correctly when using the "Contiguous Zones" option in the EXS editor

Long list in release notes.

Have been reading in at G.S, When running in 64 bit mode, 32 but plugs now running in a wrapper as expected , interesting to see where the dust settles.

Now seeing you don't specifically need to be running the 64 bit kernel to access larger memory address space, only memory above 32GB , nor to run the application in 64 bit mode, so I'll be interested how this actually pans out.

Can I use my existing Audio Unit (AU) plug-ins in 64-bit mode?
To make the transition to 64-bit easier, both Logic Pro and MainStage are still able to access 32-bit-only Audio Unit plug-ins while in 64-bit mode by using a utility application called 32-bit Audio Unit Bridge. This application opens automatically whenever a 32-bit-only Audio Unit plug-in is accessed.* The 32-bit Audio Unit Bridge hosts all currently used 32-bit-only Audio Unit plug-ins and runs alongside Logic Pro or MainStage to provide access to the plug-ins being used.

The 32-bit Audio Unit Bridge has the same 4GB memory address limit as any other 32-bit application. Also, it is only possible to display and edit one 32-bit plug-in at a time.

Audio Unit plug-ins which are 32-bit only will appear in the channel strip plug-in insert menu under "Audio Units (32-bit)". Audio Unit plug-ins which are 64-bit will appear in the normal location in the menu. Check with your favorite third-party plug-in developers for updated information on the availability of 64-bit versions of their plug-ins.

Spotted this posted already :

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/662/32bitlogicerror.png

Let me preface my comments with the disclaimer that I am actually a Apple/Logic fanboy. But....

IMO, this update is a massive FAIL for Apple. The 32bit wrapper is a hideous, cumbersome solution to bridge apps for the 64bit world. To require a second (non-attached) window to access the UI of plugs is ridiculous. (And please don't compare this to jbridge - that is a 3rd party app, so I think you can say that it is a 'necessary' additional step.) I mean, is Apple suggesting that they couldn't code that extra mouse click and hide that window for 32bit apps?! Sad... For single screen/laptop users, these windows will take up valuable real estate and are a PITA to move around since you can't close the bridging app without closing the plug UI.

Further, the memory limitation of the 32-bit bridge is still the ridiculous ~2.4GB that Logic originally had. Not the full 4GB it should be. Remarkably, Cakewalk got this right and you can have four instances of it! (The primary reason I shelled out for SONAR as my 'transitional' 32-to-64 bit DAW.) Worse, I got Logic to crash 3 times within an hour using 32bit instances of SD2 and Spectrasonics. Even worse, Logic could not shut down gracefully after the crashes of the 32bit bridge app. All in all, not a good showing for Cupertino.

The only redeeming factor I see in this effort is that many more developers will move forward with 64 bit versions of their products sooner. THAT is a wonderful thing! But in the interim, I think Apple should consider a 9.1.1 update to forgo that annoying 32 bridge window, right away!

Nice try, Apple. But this time, you've missed the mark...hidz